Sailing uphill and timing

[JPA Cate]

I'm willing to take the OP's word that the boat is now solid, though without an engine. I think, since it is not a weatherly design, he's going to need plenty of sea room. The boat's possibly sturdy enough to withstand days of gales, maybe the crew, not so much. Time will tell. I do like, though, the idea of the lovely run from SF to HI, to shake down the boat and the crew. As long as he can bring himself to leave HI in August, he should arrive in WA before the first major storm of the new winter-to-come season.

Ann (who was once snowed on in the Yukon Territory on the 18th of Aug. I know those cold storms are coming.)

[Don C L]

I am assuming you have a good sized RIB with a 30 hp or so on it to give you steerage when/if needed to get in/out/around smaller harbors along the way?

[Schooner Chandlery]

HI is way outta the way unless the Pacific high has set up huge or far west. In the spring before the high sets up sailing north is achievable near coast or within 200nm of the coast.

With good sails and experience sailing his boat he could make short work of this trip. Without both not such a good idea.

Based on the trips my boat has made to HI, it is 6 weeks for my boat to sail to HI and then to WA. It's 6 days sailing up the coast in southerlies Tacking out and back working north isn't going to be 6 weeks but more like 2 weeks.


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[JPA Cate]

Schooner Chandlery has a good point about the good sails and experience. We don't know whether the OP will have good sails, nor do we know his sailing experience.

So, in a sense, we're into the realm of fantasy here. One starts wondering how much weight his modifications have added to the ketch, and what its tacking angles are. As SC knows, it's upwind and upcurrent from SF to Cape Flattery. Being engineless, he's not going to be going into harbors.

Perhaps the May scenario would be best, but if it's a light air trip, how is that heavy boat to cope with that? What sails would you choose? (besides storm sails for the odd bad weather).

Ann

PS, I have just been thinking, that's a lovely off the wind trip to HI, a destination at which anything that needed to be fixed could be. And that the OP really needs experience sailing his boat.

[Schooner Chandlery]

It looks to be a lovely boat and I hope the OP takes the time to get the boat out on the Bay sailing and outside of the Bay sailing in some challenging conditions. Then, coming back to assess what's needed changing and what's to be dealt with. There's always something.

The Bay area is a very cost-effective place to keep a boat in a marina (if one is not living aboard) and the OP could move the boat to a private dock or low cost marina here if he runs out of time to do what my (former US Navy) husband refers to as "work ups" before the bigger trip.

If the boat is in good shape (only to be discovered once it's actually sailing in some rough seas and bigger winds), he'll have a wonderful trip north.

Ann Cate, I have no fondness for HI myself so whenever someone suggest sailing there "on the way" to the PNW or AK I'm always thinking "what a waste of time." We each have our favorite places for sure. I know a fellow who, with his wife, both school teachers, went to HI and back to San Diego (no going up over the high for them) every summer--in a little Ranger 28--and loved it.

OTOH, as much as you think of the lovely off the wind trip to HI, several people I know have actually had rather miserable trips to HI in recent years. Some of the stories are humorous--a friend was crew on a 45' bluewater cruising vessel along with 3 other guys. My friend said every time he went to sleep the owner and other crew would turn the boat around 180 heading back to the mainland or to a heading contrary to making it TO HI because they had large, uncomfortable beam-on seas and even a bit of close reaching needed and were unwilling to deal with the lower level of comfort. At least they had a good autopilot and charging systems. Because of all the obtuse sailing they did for a more comfortable ride, the trip took 5 weeks to get there. It was expected to only take them 2-3 weeks. In among similar stories is one of a fellow we met who lost his boat when an unexpected hurricane veered towards him in between SF and HI. Can't recall the named storm but his story was also in Lat38 because after a severe knockdown the boat was badly damaged and he and crew were rescued by merchant mariners (August 2014 timeframe as I recall).

If our OP has time for 2-3 weeks to HI and about a month or 6 weeks to the PNW from there, he has a lot of time to do those "work ups" and figure out his boat--and then take the week or two week trip up the coast OR decide on something different.

I look forward to hearing about what the OP has done in terms of sailing this boat already and hope he'll share some work-ups and info about them with everyone here as well.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

HI is way outta the way unless the Pacific high has set up huge or far west. In the spring before the high sets up sailing north is achievable near coast or within 200nm of the coast.

With good sails and experience sailing his boat he could make short work of this trip. Without both not such a good idea.

Based on the trips my boat has made to HI, it is 6 weeks for my boat to sail to HI and then to WA. It's 6 days sailing up the coast in southerlies Tacking out and back working north isn't going to be 6 weeks but more like 2 weeks.


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Schooner Chandlery, It's difficult to say this without putting you on the spot. But I'm unclear as to what you're trying to suggest with the above post, & some of the others.
As the bottom line seems to be that you're saying that it's unwise to try going directly up the coast in this vessel. A point we all can, & have, agreed upon.
Yet in some other posts in this thread, as well as the one above, you're fighting the idea of taking her a good way offshore in order to get good winds, & reasonable sea room. Something which is in keeping with good seamanship so as to safely get the vessel up north.
Thus I'm confused??? What are you trying to suggest?

Realistically, to get up to the PNW without an engine, you don't want to be anywhere near that coast. Period. Regardless of the time of year. As in giving yourself 3-digit sea room, minimum, more or less. So to me, the choices seem fairly clear. Non? And if not, please explain.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Schooner Chandlery, It's difficult to say this without putting you on the spot. But I'm unclear as to what you're trying to suggest with the above post, & some of the others.
As the bottom line is that you're saying that it's unwise to try going directly up the coast in this vessel. A point we all can, & have, agreed upon. Yet in some other posts in this thread, as well as the one above, you're fighting the idea of taking her a good way offshore in order to get both reasonable sea room, & good winds. Something which is in keeping with good seamanship so as to safely get the vessel up north.
Thus I'm confused??? What are you trying to suggest?

Realistically, to get up to the PNW without an engine, you don't want to be anywhere near that coast. Period. Regardless of the time of year. As in giving yourself 3-digit sea room, minimum, more or less. So to me, the choices seem fairly clear. Non? And if not, please explain.

No worries if I confused you. I do believe he should go up the coast. I am not saying he should not do it. But without an engine he can't do it quite so easily as with one. And we don't know his boat.

I don't believe he should undertake the HI route lightly. It would likely be faster easier safer to do some work ups and then -if the boat is found to be as seaworthy as we all hope it is -sail up the coast (at his own comfort distance which need not be far) in the spring before the prevailing NW winds set up than do the HI route.

I base my opinion on my experience and that of other sailors I know who sail similar vessels in these waters between SF and WA

Our own northbound trip from SF to Neah Bay took place with a day of motoring and the rest sailing. A day into the sailing (so about day 2 of the trip) we learned that our starter wasn't cooperating so we sailed the rest of the trip with no engine available unless we felt like rebuilding the starter--and we didn't because conditions were rough. We started at 30nm off shore but distanced ourselves out 30 more for the remainder of the trip (60 mm out). That was our comfort distance 60 nm which would give us at least a day to drift before facing the shoreline. 5.5 days of sailing in spirited conditions.

Our return north to south was in late summer fog and calms. Motored down the coast 10nm out most the time in the crab pot free tow lanes. 5.5 days but only the first day had enough wind to just sail. We did have wind on the nose (southerly) for 17 hrs as well.

So my thoughts are based on my experience in sailing our classic 85 year old boat of similar size as the OP but ours is schooner rigged and of a different NA. And though old it has been completely rebuilt so she is stiff and sails like she's new.

But I know of Colin Archer designs and old old ones that actually do quite well to weather. Only the OP can tell us how well his boat will do and how good his sails may be and any other bits that would change all our thoughts about his planned trip.

The trip itself is very doable. It just takes watching the weather and having a sufficiently good boat good sails and an experienced sailing crew. The OP didn't ask our opinion of his boat sails or sailing capability.


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[UNCIVILIZED]

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. So the explanation is more than appreciated. Plus, it also got me to doing the "dangerous thing". AKA Thinking.

Now, I can't help wonder how difficult & expensive it might be to install a diesel in the OP's vessel. As it would make the proposed trip easier, & also do the same in terms making her much easier to handle in close quarters for the next half century as well.

Obviously she'd no longer be "pure", as she is now. But given that such sacrilege has been committed to many a 12m, IACC boat, & numerous other designs... It wouldn't be the worst nautical blasphemy ever committed.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. So the explanation is more than appreciated. Plus, it also got me to doing the "dangerous thing". AKA Thinking.

Now, I can't help wonder how difficult & expensive it might be to install a diesel in the OP's vessel. As it would make the proposed trip easier, & also do the same in terms making her much easier to handle in close quarters for the next half century as well.

Obviously she'd no longer be "pure", as she is now. But given that such sacrilege has been committed to many a 12m, IACC boat, & numerous other designs... It wouldn't be the worst nautical blasphemy ever committed.

The cost of putting a good (rebuilt used) diesel engine in place is a tiny drop in the bucket of the overall cost of rebuilding that vessel properly. Sails, standing and running rigging also are dear. Our OP doesn't share condition of those things with us yet.

If the boat doesn't have room for a rudder aperture through the horn timber/counter timber, it can still have one put in "offset" as the Schooner Martha which operates out of Port Townsend WA has done--along with many other traditional boats. If there is not room for engine and prop shaft all aligned, he could also put in a reasonably priced hydraulic drive to the prop and mount the engine anywhere. The Frank Edmund (a 54' homebuilt schooner that is presently in Pillar Point harbor) has it set up that way with engine midships and off to one side. Our OP seems to have the mechanical ability to do this stuff as well.

Winds are lighter in Puget Sound, currents are heavier, so the OP may be very happy to have a motor up there.

[Roebear]

Hello and thanks for the input, insights, interest, questions and other words with "i" in them.
Well engineless was a choice out of a desire for a different experience. Her auxiliary power of 1890 was 4 18ft. sweeps, used for maneuvering tight spots in a harbor. I have four ash 18ft. sweeps for just that possibility. I have a couple of engines on pallets but are for other projects. In a previous life I worked for a company that was developing a hybrid diesel electric system for yachts. Recently I had been working on a propane/solar electric hybrid propulsion that easily develops 75 hp, high torque to throw a 22 inch wheel. This would almost be a drop in and go of ten days and a few hundred dollars. I have three suits of sails. New canvas, 2nd season dacron heavy weight. And a suit of Kevlar J-105 sails that were made wrong but usable by me, and some mismatches that will work in a pinch. I should also state that La Creole is not a Yacht but a sailing blue water workshop. Hand and power tools, TIG welder, anvil, forge, hard hat dive gear, industrial sewing machine, bandsaw and a foundry to cast small parts of bronze or aluminum(from those empty beer cans) Built as a coastal freighter I decided to use her freight capacity for the workshop and still have plenty of room for tankage, food for six and comfort.
The reality of this transition was to either pack and move the house first or the boats. Each had their unique challenges and each was going to cost LOTS of money. As for knowing how this boat will sail, I have the stories of those who sailed her here and sailed her while here, and now I will get to practice more when I come back in April to shakedown for that spring transit.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Other things that came to mind and I'm really just curious about --

Did you refasten the boat? If so, I'm totally impressed to think you replaced all those monel rivets. If you did not, you may wish to make sure you've planned on potentially large weeping and leaking.

Did you recaulk the boat? what condition were the seams in (crushed wood, tight seamed, etc)

One comment about "other people's stories of sailing (OPSOS) your boat"

Take those stories with many grains of salt. We have plenty of OPSOS our boat and the majority of them are totally "out there" and make us wonder if the person is recalling the right boat or was on drugs while sailing or ... perhaps wishful thinking...who knows.

Get your own sailing time in before deciding what you'll do. You will hopefully do that now just to get an idea of your boat's capabilities.

Have a wonderful move to the PNW.

PS -- do NOT wait for the high to set up or you are just asking for a miserable trip north. That means get yourself back down here in February/March so you can make an April trip if a wx window opens up. The later in the season, the more likely you'll be seeing nothing but winds out of the NW.

[JPA Cate]

Schooner Chandlery and everyone,

I am glad to learn of the sails and the sweeps, perhaps some practice will help, as well.

I think SC's original suggestion of 200 n. mi. or more offshore had a certain sense to it. Roebear seems to be thinking of it as a delivery run, not a situation where he has time to go to HI (which took us a tad over 16 days in a 30 foot sloop). In any event that trip was to see if we liked offshore passages, and it turned out we did. Then we sailed her back to SF, and the first few days out of Kauai were fairly rough.

If Roebear wants to make the trip according to the plans he's expressed here, that should work okay, too. However, I still feel concerned that he has not spent any ocean time of his own sailing this boat before tackling this uphill trip. It is the lack of experience sailing and living on the boat at sea that I thought to address by the pleasant trip. We enjoyed sailing around Oahu, and also Kauai.

Roebear, I wish you safe passage, and I sure hope you have fun with that boat after all the work you've put into her.

Ann