Microplastics in the sea

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Unspeakable the image at the top of that article!!! A most horrible view.

How can people be such pigs? Why can I collect my plastics and others can NOT?

It is hard not to link this truly tragic situation with globalization.

The rich get richer, the masses get their iPhones, and the poor countries get all the plastic garbage.

Truly sad.

https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic...m_medium=email


I believe a large number of countries simply do not have the disposal infrastructure to deal with the relatively recent influx of non-biodegradable, single-use, plastic trash. Not counting the hundreds of thousands of tons of purely U.S. generated plastic trash that we ship to them to “get rid of” for us.

In years past, we could have 100 thousand people dumping their trash in a field by the river, and the trash generated (cardboard, wood, glass and cheap tin) eventually turned into wood pulp, became basically inert, or rusted away in fairly short order.

Currently -- that same cities' inevitable single-use plastic trash accumulation will continually increase, blow around, and accumulate in waterways, as one of many millions, for the next 200+ years. When it eventually gets worn down, it breaks down into microplastics, and is consumed and breathed by the entire food chain.

We're also betting the quality of life of our kids and grandkids that constantly eating and breathing microplastics, derived from crude oil and byproducts, is completely harmless. Asbestos was also heavily marketed, and industry scientists claimed it was completely harmless for generations.

To state the obvious - a capitalistic market regulation - that shifts the future packaging market to meet certain required biodegradable single-use packaging requirements - is nothing but absolutely basic common sense. We are just seeing the VERY beginnings of this issue.

Our kids and grandkids will live through much worse. Single-use trash does just not "disappear" anymore -- like in years past.

Just look at eventual disgusting visual impact on the environment alone. The photos shown are just the beginning. The time and responsibility to start fixing this problem is held by our generation – no one else caused it.

There's more non-biodegradable single-use plastic packaging coming down the line behind it.

[GordMay]

How To Use Less Plastic ➥ https://www.theonion.com/how-to-use-...tic-1834450510

'How Bad For The Environment Can Throwing Away One Plastic Bottle Be?' 30 Million People Wonder

WASHINGTON—Wishing to dispose of the empty plastic container, and failing to spot a recycling bin nearby, an estimated 30 million Americans asked themselves Monday how bad throwing away a single bottle of water could really be.

"It's fine, it's fine," thought Maine native Sheila Hodge, echoing the exact sentiments of Chicago-area resident Phillip Ragowski, recent Florida transplant Margaret Lowery, and Kansas City business owner Brian McMillan, as they tossed the polyethylene terephthalate object into an awaiting trash can. "It's just one bottle. And I'm usually pretty good about this sort of thing."

"Not a big deal," continued roughly one-tenth of the nation's population.

According to the inner monologue of millions upon millions of citizens, while not necessarily ideal, throwing away one empty bottle probably wouldn't make that much of a difference, and could even be forgiven, considering how long they had been carrying it around with them, the time that could be saved by just tossing it out right here, and the fact that they had bicycled to work once last July.

In addition, pretty much the entire states of Missouri and New Mexico calmly reassured themselves Monday that they definitely knew better than to do something like this, but admitted that hey, nobody is perfect, and at least they weren't still using those horrible aerosol cans, or just throwing garbage directly on the ground.

All agreed that disposing of what would eventually amount to 50 tons of thermoplastic polymer resin wasn't the end of the world.

"It's not like I don't care, because I do, and most of the time I don't even buy bottled water," thought Missouri school teacher Heather Delamere, the 450,000th caring and progressive individual to have done so that morning, and the 850,000th to have purchased the environmentally damaging vessel due to being thirsty, in a huge rush, and away from home. "It's really not worth beating myself up over."

"What's one little bottle in the grand scheme of things, you know?" added each and every single one of them.

Monday's plastic-bottle-related dilemma wasn't the only environmental quandary facing millions of citizens across the country. An estimated 20 million men and women wondered how wasteful leaving a single lightbulb on all night really was, while more than 40 million Americans asked themselves if anyone would actually notice if they just turned up the heat a few degrees instead of walking all the way downstairs and getting another blanket.

Likewise, had they not been so tired, and busy, and stressed, citizens making up the equivalent of three major metropolitan areas told reporters that they probably wouldn't have driven their minivans down to the corner store.

"Relax," thousands upon thousands of Americans quietly whispered to themselves as they tossed two articles of clothing into an empty washing machine and turned it on. "What are you so worried about?"

➥ https://twitter.com/theonion/status/...916288?lang=en

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic...m_medium=email


I believe a large number of countries simply do not have the disposal infrastructure to deal with the relatively recent influx of non-biodegradable, single-use, plastic trash. Not counting the hundreds of thousands of tons of purely U.S. generated plastic trash that we ship to them to “get rid of” for us.

In years past, we could have 100 thousand people dumping their trash in a field by the river, and the trash generated (cardboard, wood, glass and cheap tin) eventually turned into wood pulp, became basically inert, or rusted away in fairly short order.

Currently -- that same cities' inevitable single-use plastic trash accumulation will continually increase, blow around, and accumulate in waterways, as one of many millions, for the next 200+ years. When it eventually gets worn down, it breaks down into microplastics, and is consumed and breathed by the entire food chain.

We're also betting the quality of life of our kids and grandkids that constantly eating and breathing microplastics, derived from crude oil and byproducts, is completely harmless. Asbestos was also heavily marketed, and industry scientists claimed it was completely harmless for generations.

To state the obvious - a capitalistic market regulation - that shifts the future packaging market to meet certain required biodegradable single-use packaging requirements - is nothing but absolutely basic common sense. We are just seeing the VERY beginnings of this issue.

Our kids and grandkids will live through much worse. Single-use trash does just not "disappear" anymore -- like in years past.

Just look at eventual disgusting visual impact on the environment alone. The photos shown are just the beginning. The time and responsibility to start fixing this problem is held by our generation – no one else caused it.

There's more plastic coming down the pike behind it.

I agree with the logic & pragmatism of your post. I also thought it important to point out that landfills & other appropriate means of handling trash are very much a feature of more affluent countries. And unlike more intractable problems inherent in trying to fix hugely complex environmental problems, we can and should come up with alternatives for single-use plastics even if the full extent of the potential harm to the environment isn't fully known.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

I agree with the logic & pragmatism of your post. I also thought it important to point out that landfills & other appropriate means of handling trash are very much a feature of more affluent countries. And unlike more intractable problems inherent in trying to fix hugely complex environmental problems, we can and should come up with alternatives for single-use plastics even if the full extent of the potential harm to the environment isn't fully known.

The disturbing thing is - I've never heard any politician of the people, from any US political party, even bring up the basic issues of accumulating plastic trash in normal dialogue.

We hear endless news cycle crap and energetic finger pointing, but not a single concern normally raised about it. It goes to evidence how the news cycle is subliminal dictation to the TV watching masses. If it's not mentioned by a talking head, is must not be important, and a vast majority of real people never really consider the topic.

Is TV news cycle coverage reflective of society, or does what's chosen to be TV news cycle coverage make the reality for the society? The older I get, the more I think it makes the reality. We're all being guided, and we don't consciously know it.

[john61ct]

Plastics, the chemicals industries, rubber, textiles, fertilizers are all so intertwined with fossil fuels sectors.

As long as capital runs our media and political system, until AOC is considered center-right, no way is any change going to led by those with political power.

Only a grass-roots uprising soon or "market forces" later, after its too late, will bring substantive changes.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Plastics, the chemicals industries, rubber, textiles, fertilizers are all so intertwined with fossil fuels sectors.

As long as capital runs our media and political system, until AOC is considered center-right, no way is any change going to led by those with political power.

Only a grass-roots uprising soon or "market forces" later, after its too late, will bring substantive changes.

It's that way because a scam is continually perpetrated on the TV watching public. Any attempt to put basic common sense to the simple problem will be led by sob stories declaring the end to the economy, all planted grass-roots outrage style by the very market forces and surrogates who don't want to compete anymore.

A capitalistic, free market economy is the greatest solution finder to problems in the world, at the least cost - but it needs a little regulation to create the incentive. Profits and costs will go right back to where they were, but possibly with different players, if the current plastic packaging manufacturers refuse to change.

They don't want to change, hence the inevitable "end of the world" economic predictions of biodegradable packaging (note the irony), and "grass roots" sob stories of those whose lives will be completely wrecked if they can't have single-use plastics to throw away. I guarantee that will happen, if the issue gets in front of the average citizen as an important news item. Somehow, mysteriously, it hasn't even gotten that far...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

The disturbing thing is - I've never heard any politician of the people, from any US political party, even bring up the basic issues of accumulating plastic trash in normal dialogue.

That may actually be a positive thing, since every time such otherwise worthy issues get politicized, it not only distorts peoples' understanding, but it immediately alienates an entire swath of people who would otherwise be motivated to get onboard. Suddenly you have politicians manipulating the message to suit their own ends, people vilifying others for not "caring," and self-absorbed pundits making themselves feel good by feeding their insatiable need for self-righteousness & moral superiority.

So yeah John, keep spouting off about your know-it-all radical politics. It not only violates forum rules, but it will only serve to discourage people from caring about a disturbing environmental problem that is within our power to ameliorate if enough people sign on.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

That may actually be a positive thing, since every time such otherwise worthy issues get politicized, it not only distorts peoples' understanding, but it immediately alienates an entire swath of people who would otherwise be motivated to get onboard. Suddenly you have politicians manipulating the message to suit their own ends, people vilifying others for not "caring," and self-absorbed pundits making themselves feel good by feeding their insatiable need for self-righteousness & moral superiority.

That's a very interesting and true point. Every issue in the past 15 years, more than anything else, is always a political opportunity to vilify the other side, and score political points with conditioned knee-jerk reactions. We're now trained that way. Nothing requires any real depth of thought anymore.

Remember all the outrage, and attacks on American values, that CFL light bulb regulations represented when put into law in 2007? It was a major, major issue. It was a joke.

Where are all those people whose lives were absolutely going to be wrecked right now? - still here doing great, with lower electric bills.

I guess all that outrage and "grass roots" opposition was all just media manipulated after all... throw a few carefully selected sob stories and communism arguments into the media stream, and the system takes care of itself. We're all trained that way now. We really are. Watch the news any day of the week.

It's true.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

That's a very interesting and true point. Everything in the past 15 years, more than anything else, is always a political opportunity to vilify the other side, and score political points with knee-jerk reactions. We're now trained that way.

Remember all the outrage, and attacks on American values, that CFL light bulb regulations represented when put into law in 2007? It was a major, major issue.

Where are all those people whose lives were absolutely going to be wrecked right now? - still here with lower electric bills. I guess all that outrage and opposition was all just media manipulated after all... throw a few carefully selected sob stories and communism arguments into the media stream, and the system takes care of itself. We're trained that way now.

Nothing new, only exacerbated by all of the polarization we've been living through the past couple of decades (or more). I actually think there's way more common ground amongst the people, and within the issues, than the politicians would have us think. The polarization serves their ends not ours, and of course all the drama & acrimony is great for the media.

It's a hard thing to mitigate -- humans seem to still be mostly tribal, and they need to identify I suppose with something, anything, that can distinguish themselves from the other side. And it's always that someone else, of course, who's the cause of their problems. Your lightbulb mandate is a good example, and I would guess the resistance was much less about a lack of confidence in the energy/money savings, and more about the mistrust of the administration that was responsible for the program. The irony is that it was enacted under Bush but implemented during Obama! Hard to get much of anything constructive done when there's such a high level of mistrust on both sides.

But you'd think the issue of Microplastics would be one that would have broad appeal, and we wouldn't be as vulnerable to the usual attempts to divide between rich vs. poor, white vs. black, male vs. female, and whatever else we're being told should divide us but in reality rarely does anymore. But we're already hearing pontifications about the greedy corporations, our heartless capitalist system, and the evils of fossil fuels. Great, fine, good, a round of applause for the wise sages who have identified the "enemies" within our midst! But meanwhile, and as you ably point out, it is exactly that system which has the best chance of engineering and implementing the best fix, and we happen to need those greedy corporations & evil fossil fuel cos. to be part of the solution for the problem they created. So as I see it, we can pontificate and divide, or come together and get things done.

[Hardhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

Nothing new, only exacerbated by all of the polarization we've been living through the past couple of decades (or more). I actually think there's way more common ground amongst the people, and within the issues, than the politicians would have us think. The polarization serves their ends not ours, and of course all the drama & acrimony is great for the media.

It's a hard thing to mitigate -- humans seem to still be mostly tribal, and they need to identify I suppose with something, anything, that can distinguish themselves from the other side. And it's always that someone else, of course, who's the cause of their problems. Your lightbulb mandate is a good example, and I would guess the resistance was much less about a lack of confidence in the energy/money savings, and more about the mistrust of the administration that was responsible for the program. The irony is that it was enacted under Bush but implemented during Obama! Hard to get much of anything constructive done when there's such a high level of mistrust on both sides.

But you'd think the issue of Microplastics would be one that would have broad appeal, and we wouldn't be as vulnerable to the usual attempts to divide between rich vs. poor, white vs. black, male vs. female, and whatever else we're being told should divide us but in reality rarely does anymore. But we're already hearing pontifications about the greedy corporations, our heartless capitalist system, and the evils of fossil fuels. Great, fine, good, a round of applause for the wise sages who have identified the "enemies" within our midst! But meanwhile, and as you ably point out, it is exactly that system which has the best chance of engineering and implementing the best fix, and we happen to need those greedy corporations & evil fossil fuel cos. to be part of the solution for the problem they created. So as I see it, we can pontificate and divide, or come together and get things done.

All very good points. I would bet we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but we could still work together – because we can actually think for ourselves. There is a ton of common ground between any of us, of any race or nationality, because we are all human. You and I aren’t manufacturing the differences, and making them into red lines, and boiling with knee-jerk outrage. The media coverage and pundit economy (being rewarded with repeated millions for fueling shallowness of thought and outrage) is now designed to create that, and the "powers that be" love it. Absolutely any issue has now been made knee-jerk tribal, and actually used as a point of pride and identity. We are in a bad place – especially in the United States - because of this.

The artificial notion that a Republican believes capitalism is sacrosanct, and a Democrat believes capitalism is evil is complete artificial, made-up, and not true. 30 years ago, no one REALLY cared if you were a Democrat or a Republican, because we were all rational humans first, and as rational humans, we could agree on a lot, and did. We are no longer rational humans, and have been conditioned by 15 years of media exposure that nothing requires any real consideration or thought any more, everything is obvious, and the real answer is to destroy, in every way, the other side.

Every issue is a caricature. It’s a gold mine for the status quo, as everyone picks a side with just a moment’s brief thought, and never actually THINKS about the issue again. The desired result is gridlock, and everyone’s very identity is now at stake, and completely dug in and tied to a phony set of exclusive views. We are programmed TO BE TOLD what the other side really thinks – and it’s BS vilified and radical. You would think the Internet would break through, and allow the universal common ground to find each other – but it’s the exact opposite, Everyone goes back to the Internet to re-fuel with divisions, and hear more stereotypes of what the source of the problem is.

As humans, we really need to think these issues through, and follow where rational though leads. That is not where the pundits lead you – do not go there. If things keep going like they have for the past 15 years, absolutely no good is going to come from it for anyone - except those already rich and powerful at the top.

By the way - those heavily influential people are not Democrats or Republicans - the way that we understand the terms. They are too smart for that. They are hypocritical and out for themselves, and successfully trying to convince everyone that they should not really think beyond the Republicans' or Democrats' iron-clad “platform,” - so they can be led around in a knee jerk fashion, and any change is impossible. It’s working great. Look at the debates and level of discourse in Congress and the Senate 40 years ago, and look at it now. Look who’s there now, and listen to the rationality of their thought. I hesitate to say we are doomed, but it ain’t good. Not at all. Seriously.

We should start a new political party - the Independent Thinkers. If a decent percentage of people break away from the stereotypes of the other side, things WILL change, and it won’t require a civil war.

We’re all born as friends, the media is making us re-born into robotic, non-thinking enemies. The selected news cycle stories, and powers that influence them, tell us what the other side “really thinks” and it’s all BS manipulation. Who doesn’t want a good job, a clean environment, affordable healthcare, and a good education for their kids? Apparently, the other side.

[john61ct]

The more common-sense the solution the more "radical" it seems.

Those benefitting the most from the status quo, those with real power, are the ones determining the Overton window, those possibilities within what is considered "reasonable"

are not actually going to **solve** any real problems.

But just cause people to be satisfied with window dressing, or cause them to give up believing the problem is just too hard, unsolvable, this becomes true for **all** our problems, but most especially those most urgently in need of fixing, we become convinced we need to just keep our heads down and accept our ever-increasingly dystopian reality.

To actually "solve" the microplastics issue once we allowed plastics to be so inappropriately widely permeated through our society, is truly impossible

without radically changing our worldwide political system.

And literally all our real power relationships and mass communications are engineered to prevent exactly that.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by john61ct

The more common-sense the solution the more "radical" it seems.

Those benefitting the most from the status quo, those with real power, are the ones determining the Overton window, those possibilities within what is considered "reasonable"

are not actually going to **solve** any real problems.

But just cause people to be satisfied with window dressing, or cause them to give up believing the problem is just too hard, unsolvable, this becomes true for **all** our problems, but most especially those most urgently in need of fixing, we become convinced we need to just keep our heads down and accept our ever-increasingly dystopian reality.

To actually "solve" the microplastics issue once we allowed plastics to be so inappropriately widely permeated through our society, is truly impossible

without radically changing our worldwide political system.

And literally all our real power relationships and mass communications are engineered to prevent exactly that.

Looks to me like another excuse to pontificate how the problem is so "intractable" that all we can do is sit back and pontificate. There's already pretty broad support for dealing with the plastics, but not a whole lot for "radically changing our worldwide political system." But if you prefer using an obviously legitimate, fixable, worldwide environmental problem to air your personal grievances about the state of the world, then the internet is the perfect place to do it.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

I would bet we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum,

Actually, I bet we're not. Superficially perhaps, but I bet more agreement than not, and areas of disagreement not the result of fundamental differences in our values but rather due to different backgrounds & experiences. That would inevitably lead to some compromise, i.e. neither of us completely satisfied, but enough meeting of the minds to facilitate trust & cooperation on the next round of issues. This is the way things used to more commonly work I believe, because there were fundamentals most people could quite easily find common ground on. These days, as I'm sure you've noticed, there seems to be a lot of issues presented in ways that both sides know from the get-go never have a chance for compromise, let alone passage. This is how our "leaders" justify "doing something," but only for their prospects in the next election and not for the sake of moving the ball forward. The latter requires a concerted effort to bring the "other side" onboard, and nobody wants to do that for fear of alienating their "base." But the problem is that the "base" is all too often made up of the more extreme elements who, as we've just witnessed, enjoy the personal gratification of their own, self-designated moral high ground to be interested in any compromise.

[Hardhead]

I agree. As we've both said, we're in a **really** bad place in the United States, and have been for the past 10 years - and it's actually accelerating, and it's actually getting much worse. It does not look like there is any way back.

Red lines and knee-jerk outrage is all there is anymore. It fuels itself like a dumpster fire. A civil war used to be a joke - now, it is truly not.

WTF is happening, and what is causing it? The carefully selected new cycle coverage is doing nothing but promoting BS divisions. We really need to stop listening to what WE'RE TOLD the other side believes. We personally need to speak out, and put the brakes on things.

Actually listen beyond the buzz words and sound-bites, and work very hard to see the other sides' point - and find a middle of the road way to get most of it. Every issue is not a death match between communism, socialism, and freedom. We all sincerely want the same things - good jobs, a clean environment, affordable healthcare, and a good education for our kids. We're being told the only way to get that is to destroy the other side. WTF is that?

[john61ct]

I disagree. The "tribal" identification factor is indeed strong, but does come from shared values.

I think systematic long-term well-funded PR/propaganda has had a deep affect on the values of the citizenry.

And those value differences underly our policy priorities, opinions about where our community's money time and energy should be focused for the general public benefit, and where they are being squandered to benefit a very small subset of the population.

While those funding the systematic long-term PR/propaganda are simply steering the conversation for their own direct private benefit.