Ferry Sinks.....

[BandB]

I'm surprised not to see this story here. Perhaps I overlooked it. But it dwarfs everything else going on today.

Rescuers search for South Korea shipwreck survivors - CNN.com

Ferry in South Korea with over 300 still missing and most of the passengers were school kids. 164 rescued. 4 dead. But the odds of more survivors are very slim now. Only hope is more have been rescued than they know due to all the boats involved in the rescue effort.

All deaths are tragic, but to us when it's school kids it becomes so much more so. I mourn for the parents, the school, the survivors even who witnessed and were part of it. All those involved and touched by this event.

[SV Windrush II]

Sad to see. My nice was on a ferry that sunk in the Philippines that survived. God was watching out for her as most of those passengers died also.

Ferries in asia are usualy not maintained, overcrowded and do not have working life boats. I have been on several and noticed that the lifeboat launching systems were rusted and painted permanently on the ship, as if they never intended on using them.

[a64pilot]

I lived in South Korea for a year and our mission was to fly patrols over the Yellow Sea.
Safety standards in South Korea are almost non-existent, South Korea at least 14 yrs ago was a pure profit driven society, business was everything, making a profit was paramount above all else. Hardest working people I have ever seen too.

[transmitterdan]

I agree that Koreans are hard working. But I don't agree they are oblivious to safety. I know first hand they are very safety conscious.

A few reports said the passengers heard a loud noise and the ferry suddenly listed to one side. Not long after it went all the way over. Apparently there wasn't time to launch life boats. How about waiting for some more information before assigning blame?

[hpeer]

What I read this am, if it can be believed, is the captain and crew were working to right the boat, but it went past the 5-degree limit. They then decided to abandon ship, but amid the confusion no one made an announcement to the passengers. By then the ship was listing so bad they couldn't get passengers out or launching life boats.

That's what I read.

5-degree stability limit? Really? Is that typical?

Loud noise ans SUDDENLY listed? Again, Really? I should think that it would take quite a bit to make such a vessel SUDDENLY list.

I have yet to hear any explanation of what caused the event.

I we'll know news is not to be trusted, so I await more info. Perhaps someone can connect on typical stability limits.

[a64pilot]

Not assigning blame, just made the observation that Korea is very "business" driven, not sure what you call that. I was there 1999 -2000, came home just after the Millenium bug was supposed to strike.
Anyway it was obvious that the Koreans were extremely hard working people, and when you were sitting at a red traffic light and the bus blew by running the red light at 40 mph or you saw a family of five on a scooter with no helmets, and went into town and most buildings were heated with ondal heating and all the cooking stoves were run form some sort of compressed gas that had the tank outside and ran a rubber hose into the house to the stove.
You figured out that Korea was a growing economy with extremely hard working people that hadn't matured enough yet to where safety standards and buildings codes, traffic laws, etc. had caught up.
At least that was the way it was 14 yrs ago

[BandB]

Well, the information flow has been very poor. The Captain has said "I'm Sorry" but nothing more from him has been disclosed. Has he been advised by lawyers to be quiet? The owner of the ship has also only said the same "I'm Sorry" and their President was supposedly going by boat to the ship but went into shock and had to be hospitalized.

The level of information and the quality of information has certainly not been good. Many questions but you'd think by now with all the divers the nature of any hull damage would be known. Conditions of fog delayed them two hours and continued fog might have contributed. The South Korean Oceans and Fisheries Board said the actual path didn't have a huge difference from the planned path. That comes across to me as a bit of double talk. What is a huge difference vs. being a little out of the channel and running aground? Does not a huge difference mean however there was a difference? Guess Concordia didn't have a huge difference.

Appears only one of 46 lifeboats was deployed.

I would love to have hope more people will be rescued but with each passing hour it becomes more difficult to believe it's likely.

[CaptTom]

I've been following this too, trying to figure out what happened without any good input.

Passenger reports, as quoted in the press, are about all we have.

More than one mentioned a hard turn to port. Could be an inexperienced helmsman over-corrected. Or maybe a steering gear malfunction. Either way, my guess is that's what started the whole thing.

I suspect one or more vehicles on the car deck (possibly poorly secured, who knows?) broke loose. More than one passenger reported one or more "bangs" then a sudden list to port. This makes a lot of sense. Once one vehicle is loose on the car deck, it slams into the next one, breaking the tie-downs. Those two hit more vehicles, and within moments they're all up against the port bulkhead, accelerating the listing.

Once the car deck floods, things go downhill fast. You have downflooding, free surface effect and possible free communication with the sea.

The crew might have tried to right her using ballast, but if so it was too little, too late.

The reported announcement for passengers to stay still may have been an effort to avoid more instability as they tried to work the ballast.

We really have to wait for the results of the investigation. I hope it results in some good information that will help prevent another tragedy like this some day.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I've been following this too, trying to figure out what happened without any good input.

Passenger reports, as quoted in the press, are about all we have.

More than one mentioned a hard turn to port. Could be an inexperienced helmsman over-corrected. Or maybe a steering gear malfunction. Either way, my guess is that's what started the whole thing.

I suspect one or more vehicles on the car deck (possibly poorly secured, who knows?) broke loose. More than one passenger reported one or more "bangs" then a sudden list to port. This makes a lot of sense. Once one vehicle is loose on the car deck, it slams into the next one, breaking the tie-downs. Those two hit more vehicles, and within moments they're all up against the port bulkhead, accelerating the listing.

Once the car deck floods, things go downhill fast. You have downflooding, free surface effect and possible free communication with the sea.

The crew might have tried to right her using ballast, but if so it was too little, too late.

The reported announcement for passengers to stay still may have been an effort to avoid more instability as they tried to work the ballast.

We really have to wait for the results of the investigation. I hope it results in some good information that will help prevent another tragedy like this some day.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families.

I also saw one comment about containers on the ferry. In addition to cars shifting that could have been a huge shift. I read this quote on Newsday and was a bit shocked:

Between 800 and 1,000 people are thought to die in ferry accidents every year, according to Roberta Weisbrod, the executive director of the Worldwide Ferry Safety Association. While ferries in the developed world are by and large very safe, ferry safety is a serious problem in the developing world, Weisbrod said. But the true extent of the problem remains something of a mystery: The actual annual death toll from ferry disasters could be twice the current estimate, she says

The worst accident was the Philippines in 1987 with 4000 deaths. However, it doesn't appear ferry accidents have been common in South Korea.

[socaldmax]

My best wishes and condolences to all who were involved! I hope they find many more have been rescued!

[a64pilot]

Yellow sea is shallow, but extremely poor visibility for diving

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I lived in South Korea for a year and our mission was to fly patrols over the Yellow Sea.
Safety standards in South Korea are almost non-existent, South Korea at least 14 yrs ago was a pure profit driven society, business was everything, making a profit was paramount above all else. Hardest working people I have ever seen too.

There is a saying in Mexico and it could easily apply here..."Safety third". China is still the same way...profits first, no matter what.

[MarkSF]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I lived in South Korea for a year and our mission was to fly patrols over the Yellow Sea.
Safety standards in South Korea are almost non-existent, South Korea at least 14 yrs ago was a pure profit driven society, business was everything, making a profit was paramount above all else. Hardest working people I have ever seen too.

Very much my recollections of South Korea, too.

I believe that ferries that have a car deck can be very unstable, as you have a huge area, down low, that is filled with vehicles and freight, unsecured, and is a uninterrupted space where water can slosh around freely.

If I recall correctly, in the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster, which flipped over very quickly too, just a few inches of water depth on the car deck were enough to completely de-stabilise the boat.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

There is a saying in Mexico and it could easily apply here..."Safety third". China is still the same way...profits first, no matter what.

Don't forget Cruise lines in failing to adhere to "Safety First."

It's just our constant reminder when boating to keep safety as the first priority. You face it every day on the water starting with the choice of boats and then do you go out that day, just looking at the weather, considering your skills, improving your skills. My worst fear is anything ever happening to a guest on my boat.

But you're both right that this just isn't the case with many. Many questions on this one beyond the conditions and route. What about the refit of the boat when it arrived from Japan adding weight up top. Did that make it less stable in this situation? While it wasn't full from a passenger standpoint, what about the number of cars and the amount of cargo and then how was the cargo secured? A shift of cargo either causative or after the initial even seems likely to have been significant.

We don't yet know what happened here. However, if profits were put ahead of human lives that's tragic.

[sabray]

The boat looked like it had a lot of freeboard. With a very low tipping degree. The news reporters are living up to their standard report by emotion not by fact. I suspect a ballast or cargo/vehicle shift. Maybe caused by a hard turn or steering failure. If you tip a room on its side could you get to the door? Could you launch a raft off a deck that is now nearing vertical? Similar to the costa Concordia problem. How do you get the raft off the boat? How do you get out of the cabin and on deck once healed at 35 or 40 degrees? Hope we learns something from this.
My prayers to the survivors and the young that lost their lives.


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