Document Question

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Forcing an extra document ... is just asinine, bureaucratic and wasteful.

No argument there, I think you just defined government While they have plenty of asinine, bureaucratic, and wasteful procedures neither the US nor the Florida government has anything close to a monopoly on those. Using the sales contract would require the government flunky to read same. Having everything on a standard form makes their life easier (and of course ours that much more difficult).

[JayCall]

I think that actually both Skipmac and Traveller are close to right on this one. As a tax attorney, it is not too difficult to imagine the broker's position. As Skipmac noted, correctly, the broker is subject to collecting and paying over Fla sales tax to the state. And, as Travelller noted, this is clearly an out-of-state sale to a non-resident who has no intention of bringing the boat into Fla. That is an exemption from the Fla sales tax law. Note that it is the responsibility of the broker to correctly identify sales subject to Fla sales tax and to then collect and pay over the tax. As far as I can find in Fla law, no such document as the OP described is "required" by Fla law. The only requirement is that the broker have documents necessary to support exempting the sale from sales tax. I would suspect that the broker had been through a sales tax audit in the past and may have had some problems documenting out of Fla sales. This letter was his attorney's solution to that problem. I would posit that the two key points in the letter were (1) the sale took place outside US (or Fla) waters, and (2) the buyer had no intent to bring the boat into Fla.

[Dauntlessny]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Just because something was explained.. Does not make it right or rational.

As I explained in my first post, I have moved on. I was just hoping to help out future buyers. Now at this point, at least educate them this would be required so they can make an informed choice.

Why even ask the question if you are uninterested in the answer?

Richard on Dauntless now in Ireland
Kadey Krogen 42'

[David_Old_Jersey]

If you dont like a deal
then dont do it. Seemples.

[travellerw]

I guess my some didn't read my original question.. I didn't ask why. I asked where I could call to confirm this with the Florida government..

As to backing out of the deal. Wasn't an option as the deal was already complete by the time I was told about this document requirement. This is the reason I made this post. I hoping to at least educate other buyers so they can make an informed decision.

Sent from my V919 3G Air DualOS using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by travellerw

I guess my some didn't read my original question.. I didn't ask why. I asked where I could call to confirm this with the Florida government..

As to backing out of the deal. Wasn't an option as the deal was already complete by the time I was told about this document requirement. This is the reason I made this post. I hoping to at least educate other buyers so they can make an informed decision.

Sent from my V919 3G Air DualOS using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

A quick google search on sales tax boats Florida will give you all you want or care to read. Or you can search under my username and sales tax for 4-5 previous discussions on Florida sales tax on used boats and links I posted to Florida Dept of Revenue and DWC web sites.

As several have noted, Florida is far from the only state that is hot after sales tax on boat sales. As a former yacht broker in Florida I don't recall we were required to supply a particular form to the state (but it has been years since I was in the business) but the burden of proof was absolutely on the broker to document the sale was exempt or the tax was paid. Having a standard form signed and notarized could save the broker major heartburn, time and possible legal fees.

I still don't understand your obviously significant annoyance over this. By now I would guess you have spent at least double the time on the forum over the issue than you ever did signing the form. And the form incurred no liability or obligation or any risk to you as the buyer. All it did was document the facts of the sale. So why the outrage?

[hellosailor]

I'll throw some ether on the fire.


If the OP was committing a fraud by signing a FALSE notorized document, that'd be a real good reason to want to do anything possible to avoid documenting a tax fraud.


Or, he could have just been bitten by a notary when he was younger, and still afraid to get near one again.


Flip a coin?


Or did I miss some third equally likely option?

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

I'll throw some ether on the fire.


If the OP was committing a fraud by signing a FALSE notorized document, that'd be a real good reason to want to do anything possible to avoid documenting a tax fraud.


Or, he could have just been bitten by a notary when he was younger, and still afraid to get near one again.


Flip a coin?


Or did I miss some third equally likely option?

Are you completely on glue? Where in the hell do you get the idea I signed a FALSE notorized document... I signed the document and had it notorized so I could move the sale forward.

Jesus some people on CF don't read anything... Just throw crap out so they can see their own words on screen.. PATHETIC..

[hellosailor]

No glue needed. Try reading the message again.


I said I could think of two reasons, actually, ONLY two reasons, why someone would make such a big fuss about getting a simple notarized document.


I didn't say either one applied, or that there was any reason for them to be suspected.


Just that I could immediately think of two good reasons to make a big long continued fuss about not wanting to sign a notarized document.


And considering that you've already been told the obvious answer to your question, as to which Florida authorities might know something about any regulations, PLUS you've already been told there are some serious tax implications for the broker and this is a very simple way for him to stay out of (possibly repeat) tax trouble...


"Methinks the lady protestest too much."


You started with a simple question, got the simple answers, and just can't let go of it, can you? That's just not normal.

[Action]

Go here for the answer to your question.

http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/current/gt800005.pdf

OR

Don't use a US based broker for a non-US transaction if you want to avoid the document. I bet the broker didn't know when he started the transaction that the document was needded so it may have been learning experience for everyone. And the State of Florida, on an audit of transactions at that brokerage may want the broker to write a check with out that notorized document signed by you in the file.

Collecting taxes or fees after the fact from parties of the transaction does not happen. And sure there is a contract stating nationallity of all the parties in the transaction, and I bet this is required by the state.

It is a paper chase world we live in.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[travellerw]

So I'm guilty of something simply because I posted on this forum and continued to follow up and defend my position.. Seriously...

I can see by your number of posts that YUP, you just like to see your words on the screen! Glad I could oblige a spot for you to blow some wind!

I will ask for those posts to be removed as they are clearly implying I have commited a criminal act.

[Cheechako]

Seems strange to me. Kind of like if you are buying a boat in Ireland, asking you to sign something that you are accepting it outside Idaho…!




Maybe it has something to do with the broker legally getting his fee on a boat sold in Cuba…..or as stated above, just some boilerplate forms...

[Action]

Here is the data.

http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/current/gt800005.pdf

[hellosailor]

As I said, the lady [sic] protesteth too much.


I said, specifically, that I was not making accusations, just that I could only think of two situations, and asking if anyone else could think of another.


By all means ask, but if you find any moderators who have the usual comprehension of some English tongue that a native speaker has, whatever they decide they can't say any accusations were made. I've been especially careful not to make any.


But keep digging your hole deeper. First you get a jones for the broker, now you've got one for me. I feel honored to be on the list!

[Dsanduril]

And we seem to be missing the point, what's the problem with a notarized document vs. any other one you sign? All notarization indicates is that a third-party (the notary) is satisfied that the person who signed the document is indeed the person they purport to be. Nothing about a document being notarized requires the document to be filed with any government. Nothing about a notarized document means you are more or less truthful in the signing of it. It simply means that your identity when signing has been confirmed by an independent, licensed third party.