A Little Boat

[marcodnn]

i was looking to a etap22 i model, it is quiet cheap! I want to buy a boat where i can learn to sail and also can take me where i want to go...don't want to buy a boat and then find out it can't take me anywhere and then being stucked in trying to sell it b4 affording to buy another one...working hard guys to save sm money, not asking dad or anybody esle for money to waste, just looking for experts opinion, i know i can find it here and i really appreciate it!
Cheers

[Amgine]

Originally Posted by marcodnn

i was looking to a etap22 i model, it is quiet cheap! I want to buy a boat where i can learn to sail and also can take me where i want to go...don't want to buy a boat and then find out it can't take me anywhere and then being stucked in trying to sell it b4 affording to buy another one...working hard guys to save sm money, not asking dad or anybody esle for money to waste, just looking for experts opinion, i know i can find it here and i really appreciate it!
Cheers

There are so many problems with what you're asking for I hardly know how to begin. So I'm going to start with an anology.

In some respects, learning to cruise is similar to learning to ride a bicycle. You're probably not going to start out on an anorexic sprint bicycle pushing really big metal (large gear ratios) in a velodrome, nor are you going to pick an extreme technical fall-off-a-frigging-cliff-face mountain bike. Most likely it's a trike, or even a little four-wheeled cart with no pedals at all.

So why do you think you must pick the last boat, the one you're going to take on your ultimate boating experience, for your first boat? You probably don't even know what kind of boating you're really going to enjoy yet.

If you think you are interested in sailing, you should probably find a nice, inexpensive, new or nearly new dinghy. Something cheap enough you're not going to hate yourself for if you find out you absolutely loath sailing. Something small enough to be easy to get into the water, and not big enough to hurt yourself (or anyone else) with. And go play with it for a while. It's loads of fun. But don't think about pulling a dinghy out of the trash bin and 'fixing it up' so you can go play with it; it's just too frustrating and you'll probably quit in disgust. If you cannot afford a cheap dinghy like a walker bay with a sailing rig, can you afford to join a sailing club which has club boats?

Once you have a large number of days wasted playing with your little boat (and I've gone tent camping for weeks with an 8' el toro) and it's just not enough, then start thinking about the bigger boat. By that time you should have also figured out how to volunteer on other peoples boats, and gained enough experience to know what you want to do with the boat, probably where you want to do it, and that will pretty much tell you what kind of boat you're going to need.

And then you'll just be too opinionated to ask the grumpy codgers on Cruiser's Forum to tell you what boat you need.

[Harre D'Aleigh]

sailing will prove to be a lot more of a challenge than typing the word "you," so be careful out there.

[marcodnn]

Thank u everybody for all your answers, got a new question tho, anybody knows anything about the trapper 300, 29'?

[Harre D'Aleigh]

If you have the kind of money to start out learning to sail on a boat that can "take you anywhere," why not just get anything? Go for the big one! Otherwise, I'd suggest taking some lessons in how to sail a dinghy, see if you like sailing. Know what I mean?

[SkiprJohn]

The Albin Vega goes anywhere if it has been maintained properly.
I don't know what area you intend to sail so its really hard to answer your questions. I believe the etap 22 would be too small for your final boat. If you intend to sail with another person along you'll find the AB 27 will be too small after a time.

I don't know if you have sailed before or what kind of experience you have with boats but I hope you'll do some sailing before buying just so you know if you'll like it.

I noticed that the type of boats you've come up with are not American so can I assume you are not in North or South America?

kind regards,

[stratosailor]

I second the vote for the Pearson Ariel! Of course, I may be a little prejudiced. I am a big fan of Alberg-designed boats in general, but the Ariel is one of my favorites. I find it very pleasing to the eye and a wonderful little boat to sail. It's very forgiving and seaworthy. Consider it a little sister to the Triton (which is exactly what it is, a mini-Triton). At 25.5' it is small but capable. It has a very good capsize screen of 1.86, not bad for this size boat. It's built like a tank, with typically thick fiberglass layup as most boats of this era had, but Pearsons in particular did not skimp on glass and resin. She's not as big inside as modern boats of her length, having a beam of only 8', but she's laid out very well below and comfy and cozy. Certainly more than enough room for a solo sailor, and plenty of room for a day out with friends and family. Headroom not quite 6'. I'm 6'3" and I stoop a little when moving around inside but I don't mind it. It's very decent headroom for such a small boat. The long keel protects the rudder which is attached to the keel at the stern. The cutaway forefoot allows for good maneuverability. That same long keel will keep you safe in a blow. It'll help you track nice and straight too. She's got a strong rig, stronger than necessary, actually. The Ariel comes with a stern lazarette. Some of these are setup for use as an outboard motor well. Did I mention she's easy on the eyes? Another important attribute of owning a Pearson Ariel. There are plenty of them around, they're very inexpensive, and they have an excellent online owner's association with tons and tons of information.

More to come....

[stratosailor]

As I was saying, The Pearson Ariel is a fine little boat, hard to do better in this size range. But I've talked enough about my boat. There are some other fine choices out there.

The Albin Vega 27 was mentioned. A well-proven seaworthy design. One sailed to Antarctica and back. It started out with a crew of three. The Southern Ocean was so rough that one of the crew quit and was taken aboard a ship. The captain and remaining crew member continued on and braved huge waves, devastating cold and wind, and the threat of ice bergs. Most said they would die, that they were fools for trying in such a small fiberglass boat. But the captain was a brave Norwegian of only 18 years of age I believe, and the remaining crew member was also courageous. Together they made it to Antarctica and back. The crew member wrote a book about the journey. It's called Berzerk in Antarctica, Berzerk being the name of the intrepid little boat. So yes, an Albin Vega would be at the top of my list also.

There are many other fine little boats out there. Personally I prefer a boat with a long keel. Faster boats may have fin keels, and I'm not knocking them. In fact, some of my favorite boats, such as Cals (another great choice) have a fin and and spade rudder. But I like the long keel because although it may not be the fastest design it is almost certainly the most seaworthy. I know some will argue that point but I've seen plenty of evidence. When the weather gets rough, a long keel will go a long way toward helping your boat stay right-side up. Also, it protects the rudder if you should run aground. Speed is important, but you can't always outrun a storm, and when the storm hits you'll want the most stable hull design you can get. Go long.

If you do go with a fin keel, go with a boat that's proven offshore. A family circumnavigated in a Cal 25. If I were going to have a fin and spade rudder that boat or any other Cal for that matter would be on my short list.

There are many other great choices, and you will want to weigh them according to your needs and the way in which you intend to use your boat. If you don't plan on going offshore, then that broadens your choices considerably. Many small cruising boats are just fine for coastal cruising. And some of them are much more comfortable to live on than some offshore capable boats. Catalinas for instance, are very comfortable little boats. I wouldn't want to try to go too far offshore in one, but they were never designed for that. Having made that statement, I will also say that almost any boat can be made offshore-ready given enough expense and preparation. Catalinas have crossed oceans.

I see mentioned John Vigor's book "Twenty Small Boats To Take You Anywhere." An excellent book that will point you toward some fine choices. May I suggest another list. James Baldwin circumnavigated in a Pearson Triton years ago. He is a world-class seaman and a well respected author. He maintains a web site called Atom Voyages. He has prepared a list of boats 32' and under that he believes are excellent sea boats. I highly recommend his Good Old Boat List. You can find it here:www.atomvoyages.com/articles/boatlist.htm

The more you cruise the internet and read about different boats and different types of boats, the more you will begin to inform your own opinion of what you desire in a boat. These are just some thoughts from one sailor's perspective. I hope this info is helpful.

[Skip20]

Vancouver 25 is a very sound and beautiful sailboat. She'll take you and a hand anywhere.

[Kapena]

Try looking for larger older boats. Prices right now are at a low due to the economy. On a mono-hull the size DOES matter. A 22ft boat is not a boat that can take you anywhere. Some people do a little cruising in 28 feet, but this is still a very slow boat and tight for more than 1 person, though a decent enough coastal cruiser size. You might be able to find a Catalina 34 or a J Boat for your budget. There are a lot of deals right now. Think big then settle for what you can afford. JMO

[stratosailor]

I have read a lot of good things about the Etap sailboats. They are supposed to have a lot of built in flotation so that they are virtually unsinkable. Not a bad thing to know about your boat, that if something really bad happened like you get holed by floating debris or a shipping container that surprises you, that your boat will act as it's own life raft. I like that aspect. I do agree that if you want to be able to cross oceans you should consider a larger Etap though, or a larger sailboat of any brand for that matter, simply because as Kapena stated, size does matter out on the ocean. Not because a small boat can't do it. They very often can. In fact, I am a huge proponent of small boats and have one myself. But a small boat is going to be far less comfortable at sea when the waves get big and disagreeable. Also, physics doesn't lie. It takes a wave 55% percent of the length of a sailboat to roll her over when taken on the beam ends. So a boat that is 32' long could take up to about a 18' or 20' wave before being rolled, while a 22 footer would be rolled by a wave of around 12' or so. These are approximations. I don't have my calculator available at the moment and besides there are too many variables that would go into this scenario besides just boat length, but you get the idea. Having said that, perhaps the most important variable is the skipper and crew and how able they are.

You probably don't want to go too big either. In my opinion (and that's all it is) the advantages of a smaller boat far outweigh the disadvantages. A large boat might be more comfortable at sea, but it's also likely to be a lot tougher on your bank account. As length and breadth of a vessel increase, maintenance costs increase exponentially. So do storage and slip fees, etc., since most marinas charge by the foot. Something to think about.

I guess what I'm suggesting is moderation. Just be aware of what the relative advantages and disadvantages of various size sailboats are. I love West Wight Potters. I think they are cool little boats. And one person sailed a Potter 19 from California to Hawaii. But even he made it clear that he didn't want to recommend Potters for ocean-crossings because that's not what they are designed for. Luckily, he had good weather all the way, because a 19 foot boat with a hard chine hull and only 400 lbs of ballast in the centerboard keel is not the best recipe for surviving an ocean storm. Not only that, but even if you did survive it would be one hell of a ride due to the shortness of the boat and the light weight.

I think if you want a small boat to take you anywhere you should really listen to the experts we've already mentioned. People like John Vigor and James Baldwin. They have made very useful lists and they are a great starting point. And keep doing what you're doing. These forums are great for learning from experienced sailors. Also, when you think you've found a boat you are interested in, look online and find all the information you can on that particular model. Try to find owner reviews. Find out what people really think about that boat by reading their opinions. The internet is a wonderful tool, and you can find out almost anything you want to know.

I'm no expert and I certainly don't mean to come off that way. I'm fairly new to sailing myself and most of what I'm telling you here is the result of what I've been able to glean from the last couple of years of owning and sailing a sailboat and from several years of reading anything I could find on the subject. So I'm a new-salt, not an old-salt and you should take anything I say with a grain or two of sea-salt! I offer my opinion humbly, but I do my best to make sure I check my facts before I make a statement. Such is the seriousness of our hobby. Going to sea is a potentially dangerous thing, and advice should never be given lightly or carelessly. Nor should it be taken that way.

[Wand]

This one is a proven circumnavigator. It's small and you could build her yourself with minimal steel and a trusty welder.
Acrohc Australis

[marcodnn]

Originally Posted by stratosailor

I have read a lot of good things about the Etap sailboats. They are supposed to have a lot of built in flotation so that they are virtually unsinkable. Not a bad thing to know about your boat, that if something really bad happened like you get holed by floating debris or a shipping container that surprises you, that your boat will act as it's own life raft. I like that aspect. I do agree that if you want to be able to cross oceans you should consider a larger Etap though, or a larger sailboat of any brand for that matter, simply because as Kapena stated, size does matter out on the ocean. Not because a small boat can't do it. They very often can. In fact, I am a huge proponent of small boats and have one myself. But a small boat is going to be far less comfortable at sea when the waves get big and disagreeable. Also, physics doesn't lie. It takes a wave 55% percent of the length of a sailboat to roll her over when taken on the beam ends. So a boat that is 32' long could take up to about a 18' or 20' wave before being rolled, while a 22 footer would be rolled by a wave of around 12' or so. These are approximations. I don't have my calculator available at the moment and besides there are too many variables that would go into this scenario besides just boat length, but you get the idea. Having said that, perhaps the most important variable is the skipper and crew and how able they are.

You probably don't want to go too big either. In my opinion (and that's all it is) the advantages of a smaller boat far outweigh the disadvantages. A large boat might be more comfortable at sea, but it's also likely to be a lot tougher on your bank account. As length and breadth of a vessel increase, maintenance costs increase exponentially. So do storage and slip fees, etc., since most marinas charge by the foot. Something to think about.

I guess what I'm suggesting is moderation. Just be aware of what the relative advantages and disadvantages of various size sailboats are. I love West Wight Potters. I think they are cool little boats. And one person sailed a Potter 19 from California to Hawaii. But even he made it clear that he didn't want to recommend Potters for ocean-crossings because that's not what they are designed for. Luckily, he had good weather all the way, because a 19 foot boat with a hard chine hull and only 400 lbs of ballast in the centerboard keel is not the best recipe for surviving an ocean storm. Not only that, but even if you did survive it would be one hell of a ride due to the shortness of the boat and the light weight.

I think if you want a small boat to take you anywhere you should really listen to the experts we've already mentioned. People like John Vigor and James Baldwin. They have made very useful lists and they are a great starting point. And keep doing what you're doing. These forums are great for learning from experienced sailors. Also, when you think you've found a boat you are interested in, look online and find all the information you can on that particular model. Try to find owner reviews. Find out what people really think about that boat by reading their opinions. The internet is a wonderful tool, and you can find out almost anything you want to know.

I'm no expert and I certainly don't mean to come off that way. I'm fairly new to sailing myself and most of what I'm telling you here is the result of what I've been able to glean from the last couple of years of owning and sailing a sailboat and from several years of reading anything I could find on the subject. So I'm a new-salt, not an old-salt and you should take anything I say with a grain or two of sea-salt! I offer my opinion humbly, but I do my best to make sure I check my facts before I make a statement. Such is the seriousness of our hobby. Going to sea is a potentially dangerous thing, and advice should never be given lightly or carelessly. Nor should it be taken that way.

This is by far the best reply i got. Thank u very much!
I was looking at a trapper 300 28', i dond't knwo if u know the model, would love to know what u think!
Many thanks
Marco

[marcodnn]

Originally Posted by SkiprJohn

The Albin Vega goes anywhere if it has been maintained properly.
I don't know what area you intend to sail so its really hard to answer your questions. I believe the etap 22 would be too small for your final boat. If you intend to sail with another person along you'll find the AB 27 will be too small after a time.

I don't know if you have sailed before or what kind of experience you have with boats but I hope you'll do some sailing before buying just so you know if you'll like it.

I noticed that the type of boats you've come up with are not American so can I assume you are not in North or South America?

kind regards,

I live in ireland

[stratosailor]

Glad I could help, marcodnn!

I do not know the Trapper 300. I did look it up online and it's a very nice looking boat. Fin keel, fairly light for a 28' boat at only 2000 kg.s, most likely designed for racing. I read a couple of favorable reviews by owners. Might be a good boat for you. I would suggest finding all the information you can online and by talking to people who have actually owned or sailed one. One thing I did notice is that it has a rather high capsize screening ratio of 1.95. But anything under 2.00 is supposed to be good for going off shore (Keep in mind the capsize ratio is not the only variable that will determine whether a boat will capsize or not. There are many variables that would go into that scenario).

Also, since you're living in Ireland, many of the boats we Americans have access to may not be as readily available to you. So boats like the Pearson Ariel that I said were quite easy to find might not be so plentiful on your side of the pond. Doesn't matter though. There are plenty of great boats built over there too. Some of which are rather rare over here. You just need to do your homework and you will be able to find just the right boat for you.

You know, that Etap 22 you were talking about might be an excellent boat for you to start out on. Unless you're planning on crossing oceans right away, which I wouldn't recommend until you have plenty of sailing experience under your belt, you could sail the little Etap for a year or two and then when you're ready you could move up to a bigger boat. Just a thought.

Whatever boat you decide on, please let us know. Good to hear from someone in Ireland, too!

Best of Luck, marcodnn.