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Old 26-12-2009, 14:24   #256
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Yes I know water is an issue. But all I have ever heard about watermakers is how damn unreliable they are.

If there was a way to do it cheaply, but then it wouldn't be a good value substitute.
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Old 26-12-2009, 14:49   #257
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good things for trade, t-shirts with logo, pic etc on them, fishhooks, fishline, picture magazine not boat type, and of course towels.
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Old 26-12-2009, 21:17   #258
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I really don't think so.
Every "island" is dependent on regular supply.
If not supplied, with the populations on them, most would starve.
Before starvation there would be murderous chaos.
If you are seen approaching your welcome would be very welcome indeed.
But not for your survival.
Actually the above is exactly the situation in most of the Caribbean Islands except for maybe Dominica and the Dominican Republic which are major agricultural islands. Every other island would collapse in chaos and savagery as they have no significant agriculture but plenty of guns. Even Dominica and the D.R are close enough to the other non-supporting islands that they would be quickly taken over by war-lords.
- - That leaves the lower Central American countries and South American countries, preferably the wilder, native indians regimes/areas. Basically speaking you would be screwed if total collapse happened in this hemisphere unless you could get south of the equator.

- - As to what you could carry on board in lieu of paper money in a world currency collapse - well, world-wide currency collapse is as close to not a possible event as you could get. There are lots of currencies in the world which are not dependent upon the US Dollar/Euro. As recently happened even with the collapse of trade goods markets, the US Dollar held somewhat stable. Non-trade dependent countries saw there currencies increase slightly or remain stable. Everybody else had their currencies slide down even though the source of the collapse was US generated. That whole situation will take years to analyse why and what happened. Any "worldwide" currency collapse would fall into the "total economic collapse" category and nothing physical you could fit on your boat would make any difference. Only intellectual skills (practical knowledge) and physical talents would have any value.
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Old 27-12-2009, 08:28   #259
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Osirissail,

Thanks for that post. I frequent some other boards that talk a lot about societal collapse. I tend to agree with a lot of what they think is a problem (oil depletion, over population, etc.) But when it comes to what to DO about it we tend to part company. Most of these folks adhere to some form of a "back to the land" philosophy, many also have a siege mentality. I see lot's of holes in their strategies. And besides, I just don't want to have to fight.

I do see our global system of trade as being at threat. From what I can tell it is built upon a extremely complex web of trade and trust. My BELIEF is that the trends have been more or less stable for the last 120 years or so. And that the system has been more or less stable for the last 60 years. However the next ten years will see major power and influence shifts.

It is pretty simplistic to resolve this down to a "global monetary collapse." None the less, it does exercise the mind to think about what is and will be valuable in the future.

Do I really think there will be a total collapse? I don't know. The odds are probably against it. Yet, the odds are sufficient for the idea to merit some thought.

Perhaps I have already missed my opportunity to sail around the world peacefully.
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Old 27-12-2009, 09:02   #260
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Gold, silver, diamonds... only worth what someone is willing to give your for it.
Since all are minerals or natural occurring items, and their only worth is that people think they have worth... its a false illusion. During the '30s and 40's, Jews fleeing Nazi Germany and Russia used them effectively to help escape. But there was no collapse of the economy then, except if you were Jewish. The Nazi's could turn it around to their advantage quite well. If the world economy collapsed... and it could still happen thru war or global climate change, then a ton of gold won't buy you squat. But if your are sitting on real wealth, then you would be the man... till someone tried to take it from you. And they probably would. Real wealth would be what someone needed to keep warm, eat, make or fine food, keep themselves healthy, clothed, protected. It would be items like toothbrushes, bandages, medicines, seeds (not hybrid seeds that may not be reproducible) bullets, guns, arrows, walkie talkies, batteries, fishing stuff. Fuel. and of course, one of the biggest commodities in the history of the human race.... alcohol.
I could see someone coming in to purchase a shot of vodka with 1 carrot diamonds. LOL.. it would be so funny as to be sad. There goes 3 months salary on a shot of cheap booze....
Going to a populated island would be a sure way to get your boat and your stuff taken from you pronto. Never mind that it wouldn't be right, it would happen. The best thing would be to stay at sea, or go to a unpopulated place, or get a lot of cruisers to go there, and wait it out. In a year or so, the initial chaos would be over, billions would be dead ( it takes a global economy to feed the world) and only the fit would have survived. Its not a good scenario to contemplate. It makes for nice books, and a good exercise here to think about what to do, but in the end... would be terrible.
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Old 27-12-2009, 09:07   #261
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Actually the above is exactly the situation in most of the Caribbean Islands except for maybe Dominica and the Dominican Republic which are major agricultural islands. Every other island would collapse in chaos and savagery as they have no significant agriculture but plenty of guns.
Basically speaking you would be screwed if total collapse happened in this hemisphere unless you could get south of the equator.


Only intellectual skills (practical knowledge) and physical talents would have any value.

Well said. The most effective survival skill you can have is practical knowledge and physical talents. Everything else is ethereal at best.
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Old 27-12-2009, 09:48   #262
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This discussion really swings back and forward and I'm not sure how serious this issue it is to some on this forum.
Go on, let's look at history and see if there are some clues? First I think we must accept lesson number one: Nothing is safe - everything may one day be up for grabs so the idea of insuring your meager fortune against losses is probably a futile one in a big disaster. Just live with it if your sweet papers goes down the plug-hole! I know of people in Cambodia returning to their family house only to be brutally kicked out by the new house-proud occupiers. Look what happens right now today in Zimbabwe! History is chockers with examples of a how the toy boxes gets emptied on the floor.
The only portable asset that seem to have stood the test of time is....gold - for many reasons. A god horse today cost roughly about the same amount in pure gold as good horses did when a deals were struck on woven yak-mats 5000 years ago.

Lesson number two: Use long-term knowledge in the short term. This means that paper and all sorts of I-O-U's are likely to become useless one day.
What do you really need? Stack up on lives necessities and in order they are: Shelter, protection, warmth and energy. Then use the rest to pocket as much pure gold as you may afford. The best insurance in a pinch may be an open linked gold chains so a link can easily be removed for barter and the chain closed again a bit shorter... This has worked for thousands of years and I don't think it will end in our lifetime or any time soon.

Next lesson: Shelter and warmth is a no-brainier for us cruisers sitting safe in our boats. Energy is actually primarely food and the most important lesson: We will need lots of carbohydrates like sugar, flour, rice, muesli and pasta products that may keep for years if dry. Lots of oil and spices for cooking plus tea, cacao etc for a nice good taste. Only get stuff in glass of sheet-metal packets or repack it in glass containers. Never stock anything in paper, cardboard or plastics. A short-term freeze may protect some vulnerably food from dormant insects eggs etc. Finally lots of proteins in all sorts of cans of fish, ham, beef plus milk-powder and maybe some delicious dried beef like South African beef-jerkie etc. If you can keep hens, you are laughing. Yeah, lots of supplements of course. Medicines? Yes, but don't think it will help if things go wrong. Weapons? Think twice about that because many people get killed by wepons they themselves paid for. Fishing gear is good, especially nets.
So why bother with all this stuff? Well, if you are prepared you will live to see another day and sooner then you think possible after even the worst imaginable disaster life will return to a semblance of normality and woo-ha... the game is back on again. Hope you will be there chirpy and bushy-tailed ready for the next round of play. A disaster is not just the end, it is a new beginning! Be there or be square.
Finally re the question where it would be best to sail? I think it would be best to just keep moving from place to place for as long as possible by any means, and just enjoy the ambiance maybe far out offshore.
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Old 27-12-2009, 11:25   #263
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Blongsea,

Thanks for your post. I think it is natural for the discussion to ebb and flow from the sublime to the ridiculous. It is clear that the possibility exists for us to face a much nastier world, one we don't want to contemplate. So we approach the ideas slowly, with humor and ridicule. But still we approach them.

I see intrinsic value in sailing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it is, by itself, an alternative society of folks who are fairly handy and resourceful.
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Old 28-12-2009, 08:23   #264
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With the exception probably of "mountain men/women" who can survive in the wilds of land continents living off the land - I think being on a sailboat affords a better chance of survival for the rest of us. There is an old saying about "bad guys" never learning to swim so a lot of water between you and the bad guys makes sense. Given that they can use little boats, the collapse will normally quickly result in no fuel to power the little boats. Mechanical breakdowns are a part of normal life, so having normal cruiser skills to fix and maintain an engine maybe a good survival bargaining position. Having gold, silver, and other "trinkets" just makes you a prime target for the bad guys/war lords. Having skills and knowledge makes you valuable to keep alive.
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Old 28-12-2009, 08:39   #265
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One cannot assume that things that worked historically will work in a future crisis. There will be a few that may take gold, silver, etc., but initially staying alive day-to-day will be what's important for most people (by whatever means necessary). Anything that keeps you alive is valuable. But remember, that value is in the eye of the beholder and differs from person to person. Think about the most important things on your boat that are critical to your survival and sort them by priority (that includes consumables). Now, what would you do if it broke, got stolen, lost, ran out, etc.? Can it be replaced? Those things are what is valuable to you. If someone wants to steal your gold and silver, let them have it with a smile. For this reason, I would keep some gold, but that would be it. All things are relative and dependant on the depth and extent of the crisis. If you want to see people's true reaction to crisis, look at past disaster events. Not just the initial reaction, but how people continued to act as time went on and "need" deepened. The tsunami for example...

Just my .02c
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Old 28-12-2009, 10:05   #266
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This just isn't one of the things I worry about (melanoma - that's what I worry about - you can be dead in three months from a pimple.)

But - to play the game, I wouldn't go to the tropics. Crowded, hot, mosquito born disease and limited food production. Not to mention too obvious. The few good places would be quickly overwhelmed by immigrants.

I'd go to coastal Maine.

- sparsely enough populated such that the land can support the population even with some immigration from the cities.
- plenty of good drinking water. Crop irrigation not required.
- wet enough to support legumes for protein and grains for beer and whisky
- self sufficient people used to making do and helping their neighbors
- no history of factional ethnic or religious hatred
- honest people, low crime rate
- winter harvestable ice for refrigeration (cold beer)
- summer comfort doesn't require air conditioning
- plenty of timber to keep warm and cook
- hard annual freeze to kill off disease carrying bugs
- good fishing (diet might get a little lobster heavy)
- good hunting - deer and moose - a bow and arrow will do if gunpowder is gone.
- long navigable rivers and bays for transportation and as safe harbors
- excellent craftsman including boat builders
- #2 state in number of libraries per capita in the US (there will be no internet or TV)

and because life after the collapse has to be worth living...

... some of the best sailing waters in the world


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Old 28-12-2009, 11:15   #267
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Plus if Maine gets invaded by all those crazy Bostonians, you could merely go up to Labrador or Greenland.

Know how to locate the three ingredients to make black powder (sulfer, charcoal, saltpeter/potassium nitrate), pack a few flintlocks. I still recommend 100,000 22. bullets for trade. Learn how to make alcohol (not too hard really). Bring seeds....
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Old 28-12-2009, 11:26   #268
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... I'd go to coastal Maine.
... no history of factional ethnic or religious hatred ...
You are aware of the Main Family Policy Council (Christian Civic League of Maine)?
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Old 28-12-2009, 12:16   #269
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oops - GordMay you're right - and some folks are real whackos too. Twenty years ago I lived down the road from a guy who had a 30ft missile in his back yard to scare off UFOs.

I guess I meant "hatred" more in the "our group has been killing your group for centuries" kind of hatred. Ahh..Except for the Crusades. Never mind...

The sailing is still good.

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Old 28-12-2009, 12:31   #270
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... I guess I meant "hatred" more in the "our group has been killing your group for centuries" kind of hatred. Ahh..Except for the Crusades. Never mind...
The sailing is still good.
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I apologise, as I didnít intend to paint Maine with a broad black stroke, based upon a single uncharacteristic example.

Ignorance and insular intolerance are rampant, most EVERYWHERE, and Maine (in particular) is not known for welcoming strangers.

Adversity may tend to draw already friendly people together, but also fosters a parochial isolationism and mistrust of strangers.

Accordingly, home (or some place youíre already known, & liked) may be a better place to ride out the storm, than any other idealized locale.

The sailing is good; but similar to my locale, too short.
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