International Micron 66

[nhschneider]

My wife and I applied three coats (first one red, the next two blue)of Micron 66 last March while we were in Trinidad. From there we sailed up to within 40 miles of the Canadian border and then back south. Our trip included a 10-day stay up the Potomac River on a mooring in Washington, DC. We hauled out in Norfolk, Virginia and noticed that we had spots of the anti-fouling flaking off. It wasn't down to the red coat but it was clear that something had failed and it didn't appear to be the bonding to the previous anti-fouling as we can see no red paint.

I called Interlux to complain and the man I spoke with said, "Is it flaking off like corn flakes?" I said it was. He said, "You've been in fresh water, haven't you." I admitted I had. "Micron 66 is the best anti-fouling paint in the world (I expected him to say that.) but it's not for fresh water."

We still have to decide what to do.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

snip
still have to decide what to do.

Fair winds and calm seas.

Strip and repaint

I think micron should be a lot more upfront and out front about the consequences of going to freshwater with that paint. It’s a great paint, but…

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You were obviously hallucinating... what you claim is impossible on a displacement boat. You own a Moody 45,000 lb displacement cruising boat which can't "surf" or plane. To claim it possible to average 10.9 knots against a .5 knot current (13mph) over 30 miles is simply ridiculous.

Well, sorry, but I have witnesses and even a video.

It is not unusual for a reasonably light boat with an efficient hull shape to be able to surf downwind. My boat has D/L of 188, which is a racer-cruiser value.

Any boat which is this light or lighter, with a reasonable hull shape, can do it, and some of the more modern designs with wide sterns and flat sections aft, can do it very easily. I had a Salona 45 for a couple of weeks in Croatia, and despite the shorter waterline (but very light -- D/L of 148), we also did an hour over 10 knots on that once, downwind with a good breeze. I've been on a Beneteau First of a friend of mine surfing at 12 and 13.

Don't make the classical mistake, which so many people on CF seem to make, of projecting your own experience of your own boat onto other people and their quite different boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

My wife and I applied three coats (first one red, the next two blue)of Micron 66 last March while we were in Trinidad. From there we sailed up to within 40 miles of the Canadian border and then back south. Our trip included a 10-day stay up the Potomac River on a mooring in Washington, DC. We hauled out in Norfolk, Virginia and noticed that we had spots of the anti-fouling flaking off. It wasn't down to the red coat but it was clear that something had failed and it didn't appear to be the bonding to the previous anti-fouling as we can see no red paint.

I called Interlux to complain and the man I spoke with said, "Is it flaking off like corn flakes?" I said it was. He said, "You've been in fresh water, haven't you." I admitted I had. "Micron 66 is the best anti-fouling paint in the world (I expected him to say that.) but it's not for fresh water."

We still have to decide what to do.

Fair winds and calm seas.

10 days in the brackish Potomac caused your antifoul to fall off?

I don't think that can possibly be the cause. I spent two whole summers in the Baltic Sea since I applied this antifouling, including several MONTHS in the almost freshwater Gulf of Finland, without the slightest problem.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, sorry, but I have witnesses and even a video.

can you get us link ? 10 kn for nonracing mono is gigantic, from what i have seen around.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You were obviously hallucinating... what you claim is impossible on a displacement boat. You own a Moody 45,000 lb displacement cruising boat which can't "surf" or plane. To claim it possible to average 10.9 knots against a .5 knot current (13mph) over 30 miles is simply ridiculous.

Having sailed with Dockhead, I am happy to confirm that his Moody cruises at 10 knots without really trying. On one trip having left Cherbourg in a flat calm but with F8 forecast later we had a great sail across. Whilst we had strong winds the waves hadn't built against the tide enabling a fast passage to the point we were too early at the Needles a major tidal gate that warrants caution in strong winds.

This was with the old sails dacron, so it will be interesting to see what she is like with laminate sails.

Pete

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, sorry, but I have witnesses and even a video.

It is not unusual for a reasonably light boat with an efficient hull shape to be able to surf downwind. My boat has D/L of 188, which is a racer-cruiser value.

Any boat which is this light or lighter, with a reasonable hull shape, can do it, and some of the more modern designs with wide sterns and flat sections aft, can do it very easily. I had a Salona 45 for a couple of weeks in Croatia, and despite the shorter waterline (but very light -- D/L of 148), we also did an hour over 10 knots on that once, downwind with a good breeze. I've been on a Beneteau First of a friend of mine surfing at 12 and 13.

Don't make the classical mistake, which so many people on CF seem to make, of projecting your own experience of your own boat onto other people and their quite different boats.

May we all see the video with gps speed confirmation? Not a hull thransducer readout which is suject to calibration.

I have many videos which I’ve shared on CF including storm performance, but to me... it sounds like your speedometer (knotmeter) is in need of proper calibration. When we monitor speed on our boat, it’s via 2-3 gps dependent gadgets, never the hull speedo which can be way off.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

May we all see the video with gps speed confirmation? Not a hull thransducer readout which is suject to calibration.

I have many videos which I’ve shared on CF including storm performance, but to me... it sounds like your speedometer (knotmeter) is in need of proper calibration. When we monitor speed on our boat, it’s via 2-3 gps dependent gadgets, never the hull speedo which can be way off.

sailors all dream. playing with tranducers can make drream look more real

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

May we all see the video with gps speed confirmation? Not a hull thransducer readout which is suject to calibration.

I have many videos which I’ve shared on CF including storm performance, but to me... it sounds like your speedometer (knotmeter) is in need of proper calibration. When we monitor speed on our boat, it’s via 2-3 gps dependent gadgets, never the hull speedo which can be way off.

I sail in tidal waters, and as you know am very keen about sailing performance, so I have an expensive ultrasonic speed log for very accurate STW, which is essential for accurate true wind calculations and for good sail trim. I'm not going to put up the videos publicly (privacy), but I'll show them to you on the condition (!) that you then post honestly about what you saw. Among others, I do have one of the Channel crossing which Pete refers to above, where we averaged over 9 knots for the entire crossing, and were frequently above 10 knots. Yes, you can see the SOG on the adjacent instrument. And we were not surfing -- it was a beam reach. Just quite a lot of wind.

But you guys in slow boats should not be so incredulous. Many, many decent performing cruising boats can exceed hull speed. Don't take my word for it; ask around. Hull speed is not a hard speed limit -- the hull speed effects start about one knot below nominal hull speed and end about one knot above. For this reason, you should not try to motor faster than one knot below hull speed -- the power required starts to go up sharply at that point and efficiency falls off a cliff. And for a reasonably light cruising boat with reasonably efficient hull shape, one knot above hull speed does not take a huge amount more power than hull speed -- maybe double? It's achievable with enough wind. More than about one knot above hull speed, though, starts to require so much power that you can't do it without surfing, so only downwind. On my boat, anyway. Lighter and/or finer boats might find it easier to break through.

Surfing is not the same at all as planing. Surfing a displacement hull boat entails using the wave action to carry the boat along -- to get the boat out of the trough and let it build up momentum. I'm surprised you don't understand this -- plenty of cruising boats can surf under the right conditions (pretty big waves; plenty of wind). Someone more knowledgeable might offer a better explanation, but I think the main thing which is going on is that the waves are moving faster than the boat is, so it means we are never going uphill up a wave. The sea state prevents you from ever having to climb your own bow wave, so kind of releases you from hull speed altogether.

Here is Beowulf doing 27 knots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4zg5vD_jvI

She has 77 feet at the waterline, so hull speed is 11.9 knots. She has a normal cruising boat kind of hull form -- no kind of planing hull! -- but she's quite light at 27 tons. That fine spray at the bow is exactly what I see on my boat when sailing above hull speed.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I sail in tidal waters, and as you know am very keen about sailing performance, so I have an expensive ultrasonic speed log for very accurate STW, which is essential for accurate true wind calculations and for good sail trim. I'm not going to put up the videos publicly (privacy), but I'll show them to you on the condition (!) that you then post honestly about what you saw. Among others, I do have one of the Channel crossing which Pete refers to above, where we averaged over 9 knots for the entire crossing, and were frequently above 10 knots. Yes, you can see the SOG on the adjacent instrument. And we were not surfing -- it was a beam reach. Just quite a lot of wind.

But you guys in slow boats should not be so incredulous. Many, many decent performing cruising boats can exceed hull speed. Don't take my word for it; ask around. Hull speed is not a hard speed limit -- the hull speed effects start about one knot below nominal hull speed and end about one knot above. For this reason, you should not try to motor faster than one knot below hull speed -- the power required starts to go up sharply at that point and efficiency falls off a cliff. And for a reasonably light cruising boat with reasonably efficient hull shape, one knot above hull speed does not take a huge amount more power than hull speed -- maybe double? It's achievable with enough wind. More than about one knot above hull speed, though, starts to require so much power that you can't do it without surfing, so only downwind. On my boat, anyway. Lighter and/or finer boats might find it easier to break through.

Surfing is not the same at all as planing. Surfing a displacement hull boat entails using the wave action to carry the boat along -- to get the boat out of the trough and let it build up momentum. I'm surprised you don't understand this -- plenty of cruising boats can surf under the right conditions (pretty big waves; plenty of wind). Someone more knowledgeable might offer a better explanation, but I think the main thing which is going on is that the waves are moving faster than the boat is, so it means we are never going uphill up a wave. The sea state prevents you from ever having to climb your own bow wave, so kind of releases you from hull speed altogether.

Here is Beowulf doing 27 knots:

She has 77 feet at the waterline, so hull speed is 11.9 knots. She has a normal cruising boat kind of hull form -- no kind of planing hull! -- but she's quite light at 27 tons. That fine spray at the bow is exactly what I see on my boat when sailing above hull speed.

Here’s a video of our actual boat an Oyster 53 (not some other boat) surfing down 12-20ft waves in 40-49 knots of wind making maximum speed of 8-9 knots max on gps...no more. Engine and 25% main sail.

People and hull transducers can be manipulated, so we use GPS. Current is also a factor, one time near Sark Island over in your backyard, our boat did a stretch of 13 knots when we had a 5 knot current running with us... but I tend to be more reality and GPS based.

Now let’s see yours....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=roLIEIjsd18

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here’s a video of our actual boat an Oyster 53 (not some other boat) surfing down 12-20ft waves in 40-49 knots of wind making maximum speed of 8-9 knots max on gps...no more. Engine and 25% main sail.

People and hull transducers can be manipulated, so we use GPS.

Now let’s see yours....

Ken,

Our little boat has a hull speed of 6.76. Running with the chute and in the right conditions we can maintain 7 knots and occasionally surf past 9.

If I was scudding in weather like your video my speed would be closer to 5-6 knots, no chute and properly depowered.

All that said, our passage planning speed is 4.5 knots...because, well, that’s reality most of the time.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Here’s a video of our actual boat an Oyster 53 (not some other boat) surfing down 12-20ft waves in 40-49 knots of wind making maximum speed of 8-9 knots max on gps...no more. Engine and 25% main sail.

People and hull transducers can be manipulated, so we use GPS.

Now let’s see yours....

Your boat is much heavier and shorter waterline than ours, plus a tubbier hull form, so you would need a LOT more power than that to get through hull speed. In 40 knots of wind I would think you could get to 10 knots or more, but you will need to head straight downwind and put out all the jib, or most of it, and hang on.

I'll show you my videos in a few days when I'm reunited with my computer. This evening I'll look around and see if I have any of them on my old laptop.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Your boat is much heavier and shorter waterline than ours, plus a tubbier hull form, so you would need a LOT more power than that to get through hull speed. In 40 knots of wind I would think you could get to 10 knots or more, but you will need to head straight downwind and put out all the jib, or most of it, and hang on.

I'll show you my videos in a few days when I'm reunited with my computer. This evening I'll look around and see if I have any of them on my old laptop.

I think it’s time for you to “put up, or.....”

Let’s see your video...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I think it’s time for you to “put up, or.....”

Let’s see your video...

If I hadn't met you in person, I would start to think I'm dealing with a 9 year old

Patience. I'll show you my videos when I'm back with my computer. Better than that, I'll take you sailing if you find yourself in these parts.

The videos -- and these posts -- were not made for the purpose of bragging about how fast my boat is, something I would never do (having passed the age of nine some decades ago ). My boat is pretty fast compared to most average cruising boats -- in enough wind (her rig is fairly modest with SA/D of 16.5), and of course waterline length gives her a huge advantage over smaller boats. But she is not at all fast compared to boats like TJ's Rocket Science, or a Sundeer, or some light "wedgies", or even a cheap Hanse 575.

[Kenomac]

Comanche is a 100ft Maxi which is capable of 11-13 knots or more which I’ve witnessed first hand when they passed by my boat (within 40ft) at the start of the Rolex series off Sardinia two years ago.

Maybe my “9 year old” eyes are beginning to weaken, but I find very few similarities (if any) between a 100ft Maxi and a Moody 54 cruiser. Maybe you can help me out?