Life Jackets

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, I see what you're saying. But this thread is not about that. In strong conditions of course everyone on my boat is properly equipped, never leaves the cockpit without a tether and someone else on board, etc. etc..


This thread is not about that -- it's about not wearing life jackets in more benign conditions, something I am guilty of, and something I'm rethinking. In reasonable conditions I climb all over my boat like a monkey, even when I'm single handed, and never a life jacket in less than F6 or so. Maybe getting more cautious with age, but I'm starting to think this is unwise.


Maybe really I will buy one of the smaller Deckvests, like Carsten has, and try to start wearing it more. Keep the large SeaGo for strong weather.


Also need to buy a new MOB beacon. I was an early adopter, and have the very first one which came out, the McMurdo one which is the size and shape of a large dildo, and can't be hidden in a small pocket ("Is that an MOB beacon in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" ). The new Ocean Safety one is like 1/3 the volume, and has DSC.

Please re-read post #2 on this thread for clarification of our procedures.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Drysuits are also made for women. Simply google "drysuit for women" to find one. We only wear them when the conditions dictate it's appropriate, then yes.... the material is very breathable. Plus the drysuit can be worn in foul weather mode without the hood for a more breathable garment as described in the video.

If the sun is shining and the wind is blowing over 20 knots over cold water, you'll certainly need to be wearing foul weather gear or a jacket in those conditions anyway, so why not a drysuit as the wind approaches 30 knots?

thanks Ken.

my foulies are heavy to wear and make me feel sluggish and slow on deck and, i dare say, would probably sink me if i fell in. perhaps the drysuit is a good option...

[thinwater]

It's pretty simple. I don't own wear a PFD because I don't like them. I can explain my choice, but I won't defend it, other than to say it is my choice. I am accustomed to sports with an element of risk (bicycle racing, rock and ice climbing), I move well, and I pay attention.

• White water kayaking. PFD, helmet, and drysuit, as needed.
• Flat water kayaking. PFD in the locker, dry suit if the water is below ~ 45, tight sealing paddling gear 45-55. These limits are extended if I am far from shore or if it is very rough, though I've never capsized other than whitewater. However, I can easily reenter the boat, and failing that, I can easily put a PFD on in the water.
• Center cockpit. No need.
• Strong weather. Harness. I sail solo a good part of the time, so a PFD won't help, but a tether will. With multihulls, the tether should not reach the rail. If it does... hitting the water at >15 knots with a tether will probably kill you.
• Cold water. A drysuit is generally pretty comfortable anytime full rain gear is comfortable; up to about 50-55F. It is also comfortable (waterbed comfortable) in 32F water for hours, but the under layers are different. If you are wearing layers for 55F and working (probably not much more than a sweater and pants), 32F water is going to be cool, but MUCH better than foul weather gear. I wear a dry suit if it is very rough and cold water solo, or wet and rough and cold water. Nice safety factor. I don't wear a PFD with it, because you float like a cork. I may or may not wear a tether.
• In warm weather I will wear a tether LONG before a PFD. Solo.
• In really hot weather, if the law said I had to wear a PFD, I'd stay home. I would wear a light harness as needed; it's cooler and lighter.

It's kinna hard to fall off a multihull if you are smart and not REALLY pushing it. But it depends on the boat, and I'll wear a tether anytime I feel exposed, near the rail and sometimes at the bow or stern rail.


I think it depends too much on the boat and conditions to have a fixed policy. Some people like rules.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please re-read post #2 on this thread for clarification of our procedures.

I read it the first time, and there is nothing there which responds to the issue the thread is about, other than just not worrying about it. Which is fine if that is what you choose; but this thread is about questioning that choice.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

It's pretty simple. I don't own wear a PFD because I don't like them. I can explain my choice, but I won't defend it, other than to say it is my choice. I am accustomed to sports with an element of risk (bicycle racing, rock and ice climbing), I move well, and I pay attention.

• White water kayaking. PFD, helmet, and drysuit, as needed.
• Flat water kayaking. PFD in the locker, dry suit if the water is below ~ 45, tight sealing paddling gear 45-55. These limits are extended if I am far from shore or if it is very rough, though I've never capsized other than whitewater. However, I can easily reenter the boat, and failing that, I can easily put a PFD on in the water.
• Center cockpit. No need.
• Strong weather. Harness. I sail solo a good part of the time, so a PFD won't help, but a tether will. With multihulls, the tether should not reach the rail. If it does... hitting the water at >15 knots with a tether will probably kill you.
• Cold water. A drysuit is generally pretty comfortable anytime full rain gear is comfortable; up to about 50-55F. It is also comfortable (waterbed comfortable) in 32F water for hours, but the under layers are different. If you are wearing layers for 55F and working (probably not much more than a sweater and pants), 32F water is going to be cool, but MUCH better than foul weather gear. I wear a dry suit if it is very rough and cold water solo, or wet and rough and cold water. Nice safety factor. I don't wear a PFD with it, because you float like a cork. I may or may not wear a tether.
• In warm weather I will wear a tether LONG before a PFD. Solo.
• In really hot weather, if the law said I had to wear a PFD, I'd stay home. I would wear a light harness as needed; it's cooler and lighter.

It's kinna hard to fall off a multihull if you are smart and not REALLY pushing it. But it depends on the boat, and I'll wear a tether anytime I feel exposed, near the rail and sometimes at the bow or stern rail.


I think it depends too much on the boat and conditions to have a fixed policy. Some people like rules.

I agree completely, and I think it would be silly to try to make rules which apply to all boats and so forth. I'm not looking for rules; I'm looking for a sensible system for my own situation.



With a large center cockpit boat with all the sails on furlers, there is less reason to put yourself at large risk of going over, for sure. But we do walk up and down the side decks all the time, do stuff on the foredeck, etc., etc. I like to sail, and I like to have the sails just right, so I go forward to look up at the sails from that perspective, A LOT, and I'm up there rigging and unrigging barber haulers, etc. etc. etc. Being in the center cockpit of a large monohull is a very safe place, but I don't like to just sit in the cockpit all the time. I sail in the North Atlantic above 50N (and sometimes even above 70N) and the sea is rarely really calm up here, even in moderate wind. There is always some risk you trip on something, or hold onto something which gives way, or something, and people die like that.


I agree with you about accepting certain risks, but one wants to manage them with intelligence, rather than just not thinking about them.




P.S. -- it's none of my business, really, but I don't think a PDF WITH MOB BEACON is useless, for a single hander, in inshore waters with other vessels about. I don't know what your chances are, especially if you go into even somewhat cold water without a drysuit, but might be considerably better than zero.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

thanks Ken.

my foulies are heavy to wear and make me feel sluggish and slow on deck and, i dare say, would probably sink me if i fell in. perhaps the drysuit is a good option...

Your foulies won't sink you if you go in. Wearing lots of clothes, especially if there is wool involved, will greatly increase your chances in cold water. If your foulies make you feel sluggish, then maybe you need different ones. The expensive "ocean racing" foulies are not usually the best choice for cruising, even in places like the North Sea -- just too heavy, and on a cruising boat you aren't being doused by seawater constantly, so you just don't need that type. I use the lightest Goretex Henry Lloyd coastal bibs, and the lighter Gill jacket, and find that about right even for very cold and very strong weather. You vary what's underneath depending on how much warmth you need -- avoid all cotton ("cotton is death", say climbers), use polyprop or thin Merino next to your skin, then some kind of fleece or technical fibers as a mid layer, would be my advice, and you shouldn't feel sluggish at all.


A drysuit is a different universe altogether, for being IN cold water. I spent hours in the water in an Icelandic fjord in my drysuit, and was simply amazed at how comfortable it was, with nothing but a Musto fleece onesie underneath. Not only survivable, but actually comfortable, in water at +1 or +2. It was weird, actually.

But you need gloves and a scuba hood in really cold water, and who is going to wear all that, all the time? Drysuit is amazingly comfortable in the water, but not all that comfortable on deck, greatly improved with the expensive Ocean Rodeo drysuits because you can take off the rubber neck seal and zip open the top of the suit for when you're not in the water -- greatly increasing comfort (but if you go over in that mode, then it's not a drysuit ).


Other huge advantage of drysuit is the buoyancy.



But I don't know if a drysuit is really a broad-spectrum answer to any of this. It is not indeed a substitute or replacement for normal foulies. Drysuits are awkward to put on and take off, awkward to unzip for taking a leak, not comfortable if you keep the neck seal on. I crossed part of the Arctic Ocean twice last summer and didn't have the dry suit on for even one mile of it. Conditions were moderate on both crossings and I just used normal foulies, plus always a life jacket when out of the cockpit, and no one left the cockpit without another person on deck.


But if I had been in a storm way up there I would certainly have had the drysuit on. We did have a good strong F8 all night one night between Iceland and the Faroe Islands, and we were flying under all plain sail with many 10+ mile hours (and one 218 mile day's run, our all-time best), and I probably should have put the drysuit on then (really high speed greatly increases the risks), but I didn't even feel like faffing with trying to get it on, once the sea was up and the boat was heeled, and didn't.



In short, a drysuit is not a panacea. There are a lot of hard choices about what to wear, when, which no one has any universal answers to.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I read it the first time, and there is nothing there which responds to the issue the thread is about, other than just not worrying about it. Which is fine if that is what you choose; but this thread is about questioning that choice.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The latest MOB thread got me thinking how bad it is that we don't really wear life jackets except in bad weather.

I'll be interested to know what others do.

In post #1 you asked the question ”I’ll be interested to know what others do.”

I believe I answered your question in post #2

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

In post #1 you asked the question ”I’ll be interested to know what others do.”

I believe I answered your question in post #2

Indeed you did. You don't worry about it. That's fine. But the discussion moved on beyond just not worrying about it, a few dozen posts ago.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed you did. You don't worry about it. That's fine. But the discussion moved on beyond just not worrying about it, a few dozen posts ago.

I didn’t write that “I don’t worry about it,” those are your words and assumptions. Safety is always a concern on our boat... I worry about it all the time, which is why I followed up your subsequent questions regarding cold water, increased wind and changing conditions with responses on what we do onboard our boat.

So now... I really don’t understand what you’re looking for or whether you’ll ever be pleased with any response from anyone. Just wear a lightweight life jacket if you’re worried about falling overboard in benign conditions.

[nhschneider]

I admit to a dangerous level of complacency when it comes to wearing a PFD and/or a harness/tether. For the last eight years we primarily sailed in the tropics and wearing anything just added to my level of discomfort. I would wear an inflatable PFD when on a night watch or when the weather got heavy and always clipped in when going on deck at night or in rough weather. I was well aware of the risks I was taking but it was a compromise I accepted to afford myself an attempt at being comfortable.

I have always thought that wearing a PFD while boating is similar to wearing a seatbelt when riding in a car and despite my own hypocrisy, I still feel that way.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I didn’t write that “I don’t worry about it,” those are your words and assumptions. Safety is always a concern on our boat... I worry about it all the time, which is why I followed up your subsequent questions regarding cold water, increased wind and changing conditions with responses on what we do onboard our boat.

So now... I really don’t understand what you’re looking for or whether you’ll ever be pleased with any response from anyone. Just wear a lightweight life jacket if you’re worried about falling overboard in benign conditions.

What I'm looking for is discussion; that's all. You answered the initial question and there is no need to keep referring to it.


Your point about "worrying about it" is taken. I should not have characterized it like that.


Yes, I am getting more and more inclined, the more I think about it, to buy a good light life jacket and start seeing if I can make myself wear it more often. The more I think about it, the more I see inappropriate complacency, in my previous practices.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...P.S. -- it's none of my business, really, but I don't think a PDF WITH MOB BEACON is useless, for a single hander, in inshore waters with other vessels about. I don't know what your chances are, especially if you go into even somewhat cold water without a drysuit, but might be considerably better than zero.

Rock climbers often refer to an anchor or safety system of questionable strength or reliability as "psychological protection." Over the years, climbers have come to realize that manky gear is a danger and that you are better either placing good gear, or recognizing undependable systems for the **** they are and either climbing down or proceeding as though there was no rope at all.

I've written articles and done research on safety gear. I believe it should be first quality and of unimpeachable reliability, so that when you depend on it, it works every time. Failures, such as the Spinlock Race Clip on Clipper CV30, are NOT acceptable.

But 10-20 years ago, when more climbers started wearing helmets at the local crag (where rockfall is not a hazard), I noticed that more climbers with helmets were getting hurt or killed than without, and I think it may be because they though the helmet would keep them safe. Obviously, a helmet does no good in a fall from significant height.

I'm not sayin' gear is not a good idea. But I am sayin' we walk a fine line when we use gear that probably won't work. We need to be VERY careful to remember that the the beacon is probably worthless and we should give it zero weight when considering how to move or to wear a tether. It is psychological protection. Not useless, but not at all dependable either. Regarding cold water, you need to really think about what cold water feels like. I believe this is a fuzy concept for most sailors. In the case of the UK, I believe statistics support that most drownings are related to cold water shock.

I did a short swim in 34F water once to recover some gear. I was not wearing a wet suit but was in Windflocker fleece. Oh man.
----
Great thread. I second guess my choices every time I go out.

[Tayana42]

Dockhead, it is difficult to change habits and particularly so if you have never had a problem with the way you have always done things. I had a new motivation to change my habits around wearing PDFs when I had grandchildren. I decided they must wear life jackets whenever we left the slip no matter how much they complained so I also decided all adults must also wear them as a positive example.

So get yourself some comfortable inflatable PDFs and you can borrow my grandchildren to make you feel the need to wear them every time you insist the children must wear theirs.

[kas_1611]

As an option for those days when you really don't want to wear the full lifejacket but want some bouancy (plus a bit of extra warmth) what about this gillet from Decathlon?

Tribord Izebar 2 50N Flotation Gillet

While not as good as a full on lifejacket at 150N plus it might make the difference if you slip.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

Dockhead, it is difficult to change habits and particularly so if you have never had a problem with the way you have always done things. I had a new motivation to change my habits around wearing PDFs when I had grandchildren. I decided they must wear life jackets whenever we left the slip no matter how much they complained so I also decided all adults must also wear them as a positive example.

So get yourself some comfortable inflatable PDFs and you can borrow my grandchildren to make you feel the need to wear them every time you insist the children must wear theirs.