Life Jackets

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Rock climbers often refer to an anchor or safety system of questionable strength or reliability as "psychological protection." Over the years, climbers have come to realize that manky gear is a danger and that you are better either placing good gear, or recognizing undependable systems for the **** they are and either climbing down or proceeding as though there was no rope at all.

I've written articles and done research on safety gear. I believe it should be first quality and of unimpeachable reliability, so that when you depend on it, it works every time. Failures, such as the Spinlock Race Clip on Clipper CV30, are NOT acceptable.

But 10-20 years ago, when more climbers started wearing helmets at the local crag (where rockfall is not a hazard), I noticed that more climbers with helmets were getting hurt or killed than without, and I think it may be because they though the helmet would keep them safe. Obviously, a helmet does no good in a fall from significant height.

I'm not sayin' gear is not a good idea. But I am sayin' we walk a fine line when we use gear that probably won't work. We need to be VERY careful to remember that the the beacon is probably worthless and we should give it zero weight when considering how to move or to wear a tether. It is psychological protection. Not useless, but not at all dependable either. Regarding cold water, you need to really think about what cold water feels like. I believe this is a fuzy concept for most sailors. In the case of the UK, I believe statistics support that most drownings are related to cold water shock.

I did a short swim in 34F water once to recover some gear. I was not wearing a wet suit but was in Windflocker fleece. Oh man.
----
Great thread. I second guess my choices every time I go out.

I think that this is a very insightful post, and I will reread it a few times.


I think a really key takeaway from this, true of so many things but particularly here, is that gear is not indeed a substitute for brains, knowledge, procedure and practice. It is a really easy trap to fall into, to choose and acquire safety gear, and even use it, and leave it at that.


Going back to first principles -- I think whoever said to regard the rail as the equivalent as the edge of a 50 story building, was very wise. I do tell that to all my crew as part of my standard spiel, but do we really live it like that? It's easy to get complacent after tens of thousands of miles of not falling off.



Cold water shock is probably really the reason to use lifejackets up here, even in benign weather. You gasp for air involuntarily, and drown, even in calm weather, even if you're a strong swimmer -- in our waters, it's the usual way to die. An auto inflating life jacket gives you some chance against that by holding your head out of the water. It's easy to forget what a serious risk this is; thanks for bringing it up.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

... I had a new motivation to change my habits around wearing PDFs when I had grandchildren. I decided they must wear life jackets whenever we left the slip no matter how much they complained so I also decided all adults must also wear them as a positive example....

That's a good thread on it's own. It sounds right, and I have done the same thing on some occupations. But is it always right?


Adults are not children, and children are not adults.

• Did you put training wheels on your bike? No, because it would not make it safer for you.
• Do you wear a 5-point harness when driving, like children do in a car seat. No, because an adult body is different.
• Can they borrow the family car? Can they take the dinghy out on their own? Can they cross the street alone? Obviously these depends on age and training. They need to accept that adults set limits, and that are things an adult can do safely that they cannot.

My daughter did watch me wear a harness a lot, both climbing and sailing, so that was never a fight. Once she could swim well, there was no more reason for her to wear a PFD in the dinghy than for me.


The real challenge was always her friends. I did not know their skill sets or nature. We had a real scare in high school when one boy said he could swim, but he did not swim well. During an anchored swim break he nearly sank. Very quiet.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In short, a drysuit is not a panacea. There are a lot of hard choices about what to wear, when, which no one has any universal answers to.

thank you for your advice

yes... what to wear...

my foulies are mens. men's clothing has longer sleeves (which is better for me as --opening up for jokes here-- i've got long arms). so the sleeves are long enough, but then i get all the extra bulk

the bulk of it: i do not enjoy feeling sluggish and encumbered on deck. not only is this draining energy-wise but seems it would potentially subtract from balance, especially if/when i'm already very tired. and you know the bit that gets bunched behind the knees when you kneel... seems it wouldn't take much

weight: i once took a shower with them on (seemed like a good way to rinse them) and was surprised as to how incredibly heavy i became. in another, newer pair (that i borrowed), i did a safety-at-sea course and climbed into a life raft with inflated vest. i did well, especially as compared to heavy folk, but i noticed how much of my energy was wasted because of the added weight and bulk.
beyond this, once out of the pool the group stood a few minutes, and most of the suits released a huge amount of water. this way of taking on water (and adding extra weight) doesn't seem right... especially when considering MOB situations

hassle: and yes, getting in and out of drysuits and heavy, complicated is a deterrent, as you described. and since i'm female, i do tend to need to take a leak at least twice as often as the guys, so it is a kind of commitment of sorts to climb into my men's foulies.


in the end, it almost seems as though staying dry is not as important as staying warm and agile and buoyant. i've often wondered: can we be wet yet stay warm in cold-n-wet conditions? diving suits seem to do this... i used to night dive in caverns without feeling the cold (granted, in the red sea) and swim in normandy with a dive suit that is a size large. amazingly warm and relatively easy to get into...


i hope someone creates foulies that really move with the body, that offer warmth in cold conditions and buoyancy and no added weight (especially water weight, for when one falls in). i'd like them to have an integrated harness for tethering in and with buckles for MOB lifting situations, a bright apple green hood that stays on tightly like a swim cap in the wind and rain and, of course, an easy/effective relief zipper... opening front to back, through the crotch, unisex.

[Matt Johnson]

We're 100% clipped in at night, if someone goes on deck, or if anyone is alone in the cockpit regardless of conditions. But, we use just our bare harnesses and not the bulky PFD/harnesses being discussed here.

The only time we've switched to the PFD/harness combo is during a storm coming from the Canaries to Caribbean.... In conditions that I needed to trail a drogue to gain control, and after hitting a whale the night before, I felt the chances of us entering the water had risen to the point that a PDF was the better choice.

We have both the first gen Spinlock Deckvests and the West Marine/Stern brand, but we did just receive Mustang's HIT a few weeks ago and hope it feels better after an hour than our previous options. We'll find out in a couple of weeks.

With a better vest, and the colder temperature dictating the need for wearing clothes, maybe we'll start using the pdf/harness too. It sure would be smarter.

-Matt

[Kenomac]

Stohlquist makes a women’s drysuit which comes in several colors.

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Stohlquist makes a women’s drysuit which comes in several colors.

Not bad, Ken. am looking at it, reading the description, looking for how exactly i get to take that leak....


thanks!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

Not bad, Ken. am looking at it, reading the description, looking for how exactly i get to take that leak....


thanks!

Zippers can be added.

[Tayana42]

Originally Posted by thinwater

That's a good thread on it's own. It sounds right, and I have done the same thing on some occupations. But is it always right?


Adults are not children, and children are not adults.

• Did you put training wheels on your bike? No, because it would not make it safer for you.
• Do you wear a 5-point harness when driving, like children do in a car seat. No, because an adult body is different.
• Can they borrow the family car? Can they take the dinghy out on their own? Can they cross the street alone? Obviously these depends on age and training. They need to accept that adults set limits, and that are things an adult can do safely that they cannot.

My daughter did watch me wear a harness a lot, both climbing and sailing, so that was never a fight. Once she could swim well, there was no more reason for her to wear a PFD in the dinghy than for me.


The real challenge was always her friends. I did not know their skill sets or nature. We had a real scare in high school when one boy said he could swim, but he did not swim well. During an anchored swim break he nearly sank. Very quiet.

You are right children are not adults but they are great hypocrisy meters. “Why do I have to wear one if you don’t!!?” has no good answers. It’s bad enough that pdfs for kids are much less comfortable than those for adults. And yes children’s friends or children of friends are an additional concern with unknown abilities and unknown behaviors. So our practice on board is everyone wears PDFs except when they are down below. Our practice, not necessarily yours.

And what’s wrong with my training wheels?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

You are right children are not adults but they are great hypocrisy meters. “Why do I have to wear one if you don’t!!?” has no good answers....

Good intentions, and I mean this politely, but that is nonsense on the face of it. Kids should be told that is nonsense when it is. In fact, there are perfectly good, factual, quantifiable answers.

"I don't wear one because..."

• I've been sailing a long time and know my way around boats better than you.
• I can swim a mile, tread water for over an hour, and you can't.

It was never and should never be "because I'm older" or "because I say so," but rather for clear reasons. This should also encourage them to build the skills.

My rules were pretty relaxed, but I also made it clear to here from a very young age that Daddy goes rock climbing/ice climbing/sailing all the time, so today is not so special that he won't take you home and go out alone. The rules were followed without repetition, because they were safety based and never arbitrary.

I frequently wore harnesses in front of my daughter when she was young. She knew I wore safety gear when it was needed. And she knew that safety rules were different for adults. She also knew I eased the rules when she learned the skills.

[I could add that "the law says kids under 12 wear PFDs," but I never did. In fact, I ignored that one a lot.]

[kas_1611]

I'm curious about the wet weather gear getting heavy when it is wet. I worked in an outdoor sports shop in my youth and did the Gore Technical Training. Part of that was the importance of cleaning your waterproofs and maintaining the surface coating on them to ensure the breathability of the membrane.

Gore Tex (and other breathables) relies on a humidity imbalance between inside and out. When it is raining heavily that imbalance reduces, especially if the outside of the jacket is saturated. Hence the water repellent coating that causes the water to bead up and run off. Over time pollutants, dirt, wax, oils etc cover that coating and reduce the beading. So you need to wash waterproofs to remove the grime and from time to time replace the repellent coating.

If your waterproofs are getting heavy when wet that suggests to me that they are soaking up water into the material. Which suggests they need a good clean and reproofing.

Do a load of laundry as normal but use a handwashing soap not a detergent. Why? It will clean the machine before you wash your waterproofs.
Wash the waterproofs as per the label (30C synthetic cycle medium spin is good if the label is worn out). Now wash them again with a wash in reproofing agent such as Nikwax TX Direct (actually recommended by Gore) on the same cycle.
Dry the garments as per the instructions. If it says tumble dry low tumble dry, if not don't. If not sure let them dry on the line rather than risk the tumble drier.

You should now find the water beads up and runs off quickly and your waterproofs don't get so heavy.

If it helps I have a 30 year old 3 layer Gore Tex mountaineering jacket that has been washed and reproofed a few times. Not only is it still in perfect condition the water runs off like a ducks back, the fabric remains "dry" and I never get wet in it, even in the worst the NW Highlands of Scotland can throw at you.

[stillbuilding]

Dunno if available overseas but I have always worn a Stormy Seas/ Stormy sailing suit with built in flotation vest (plus whatever extras you want in the capacious pockets) plus harness. Just add your own lifelines.

Very good except in tropics.

Much easier than suit plus separate vest/harness.

Partners wear the same without problem. Was perfect in southern latitudes.

[Nineteen]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I can't see using two different inflatables. Why not setup one that is comfortable and has attached what you want? We got rid of our 10 year old beat up inflatables and bought some Ergo ones. They are a comfortable fit and much cheaper than the Spinlocks.

My wife and I love the RFD ERGOFIT 190s - wear them all the time in the rib and on board. They are rediculously comfortable and ours are the Hammar version that need to be in the water - not just wet to auto deploy[emoji106] The built in spray hood also works a treat (sea safety course).

[Dockhead]

So I purchased a Spinlock Deckvest 5D 170N and an Ocean Safety MOB1.


I did not buy it online -- I went to my now favorite chandlery, Joliffe's, paid a little more, but was very glad to support this splendid establishment.


And -- I got to try it on and compare it to others.



The bottom line is that it's very light and comfortable, so consistent with my goal now to start wearing my lifejacket whenever I'm on deck and underway, even in benign weather.



The lifejacket seems very well designed. It has an unusual strobe light on a stalk which flips up, and is automatically activated, and another unusual light which illuminates the bladder itself -- a good idea. It has separate lifting straps. I like the strap which fits around your waist like a climbing harness -- feels far more secure. It comes with a cutter for the lifeline (the newer version has a quick release where you just pull a strap). It is very compact so no pockets, other than one quite small mesh one not big enough for a PLB, but I bought the little attachable pack which looks really good.


Best of all is the tiny MOB1 beacon, which is like 1/8 of the volume of the old McMurdo dildo-style beacon which I have. I didn't expect this. It fits right onto the inflation tube and will be activated completely automatically (the old one is activated only manually, only after pulling a pin and twisting), and not only sends AIS, but makes a DSC call, setting off an alarm. Battery lasts 7 years


So there you have it, and a local product from a company three doors down!

[Kenomac]

I’m looking into replacing a few lifevests myself, how does the one you’ve chosen keep from lifting up without the crotch straps? Does the belt replace this function?

If it does, There may be at least two of these in our future.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m looking into replacing a few lifevests myself, how does the one you’ve chosen keep from lifting up without the crotch straps? Does the belt replace this function?

If it does, There may be at least two of these in our future.

That was my reason for rejecting them last year, so ended up with a more conventional lifejacket from Seago, the activefit 190N Pro (with harness). Paid extra for the hoods. One season on they are very comfortable and an improvement on the old LJs we were using, sometimes.

I have worn Dockheads big lifejackets and the conditions warranted them. However, if you can afford the cost of extra jackets and have the space (we don't) then a lighter LJ which encourages the user to wear it has got to be a major improvement. Certainly encourages us to wear them.

The one other thing I have picked up is a bouyancy aid foam filled jacket for use in the dinghy. We don't go far in the dinghy and don't want to leave an expensive jacket in the dinghy when ashore but a cheap bouyancy aid is unlikely to walk about on its own in NW Europe.