Do I Need A Life Raft

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by fish53

On the factory trawler I operated we carried liferafts as required by the USCG, we also carried a rescue boat, a sixteen foot RIB with a forty horse outboard. Different tools for different purposes.

Exactly, but even dedicated commercial rescue boats have their launch limitations, so the final rescue solution is to deploy an unmanned life raft upwind of the stricken vessel and slowly pay out till crew can transfer.

For my own sinking yacht emergency, I would deploy rib tender first by removing the falls and then simultaneously dropping away slings underneath once a long painter was secured with a removable hitch far along the bight.

Then deploy and transfer to life raft with its painter looped around the rib painter so it allows life raft to slide along rib painter till you get to removable hitch which frees rib from sinking yacht.

Timing is quite critical to make decisions to abandon

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Exactly, but even dedicated commercial rescue boats have their launch limitations, so the final rescue solution is to deploy an unmanned life raft upwind of the stricken vessel and slowly pay out till crew can transfer.

For my own sinking yacht emergency, I would deploy rib tender first by removing the falls and then simultaneously dropping away slings underneath once a long painter was secured with a removable hitch far along the bight.

Then deploy and transfer to life raft with its painter looped around the rib painter so it allows life raft to slide along rib painter till you get to removable hitch which frees rib from sinking yacht.

Timing is quite critical to make decisions to abandon

We lifted ours with a crane by bridles and rigged a sea painter to bring it alongside. An able boat but not something I'd want to be adrift on in the Bering Sea.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Hmmmmm......there we go again with a dictate - 'get one'.

Hi Bulawayo....More an opinion than a dictate [emoji111]
But we do not seem to differ from the fact that they complement one another and my opinion is that it shouldn't be an either-or if you can manage it.

As to service, most large commercial ports will have a certified repacker and failing that, you can wait an extra year until you can and just boost your ditch bag.

I have always attended the deployment of my Liferafts and inspected them thoroughly for degradation.
Last year 2015 I deployed an old 1998 RFD in my back yard that was last serviced in 2006 and could no longer be certified.

It deployed perfectly and stayed inflated for months, however all the consumables were spoiled.

Only the lining in the canopy showed degradation.

Not advocating that you do not service properly, but that you get to know them as intimately as you would any other life saving equipment.

[kmacdonald]

It might come down to how confident you are in your own abilities. There are plenty of sailors that have no business standing on a dock never mind sailing a boat. Some feel that if they carry endless arrays of "safety" equipment that they will be "safe". Through in a few "safety at sea seminars" and what could go wrong?
The insurance companies know what I am talking about. They drop people with claims because they are almost assured to have more "accidents".

[OrangeCrush]

I'd like to add a question to this very informative thread since I'm planning on a raft myself.

What happens if you put 5 people in a 4 person life raft? Would an extra person completely destabilize the raft or is it more an issue of comfort and consumables?

I will rarely have more than 4 people on my boat offshore so a 4 man is much more appealing than a 6 man, but then again there is the chance of 5 people on board for some short offshore passages.

[kmacdonald]

^ You can barely squeeze four people in a four man life raft. If 5 people start the voyage and it comes down to boarding a life raft, I doubt that there will be 5 live people to board the raft so you should be fine with a 4 man raft.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

^ You can barely squeeze four people in a four man life raft. If 5 people start the voyage and it comes down to boarding a life raft, I doubt that there will be 5 live people to board the raft so you should be fine with a 4 man raft.

Tell me you just kiddin' Kmac.
Give an early New Years pressie. Huh?

[RPZ]

I have to side with Fish53.

The most significant difference between an offshore life raft and any kind of dingy or inflatable/rib is shelter.

The greatest risk, short of a dunking in very cold water, is exposure. Depending on your general state of health, age, how much sleep you have had prior to ditching, calorific intake, exposure can take you down when you are wet and exposed to winds even in comparatively mild water and air temperatures.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by OrangeCrush

I'd like to add a question to this very informative thread since I'm planning on a raft myself.

What happens if you put 5 people in a 4 person life raft? Would an extra person completely destabilize the raft or is it more an issue of comfort and consumables?

I will rarely have more than 4 people on my boat offshore so a 4 man is much more appealing than a 6 man, but then again there is the chance of 5 people on board for some short offshore passages.

Good question OrangeCrush.

The rating is based on the amount of provisions supplied by SOLAS Regulations as well as the minimum number of adults required for stability

While designed to be a tight fit in order to cushion each other in rough weather, there is room for one more in a pinch.

Suggest you contact a service center, bring the family down and climb inside to see the fit with each sitting with backs to tube and feet centered

Some models and shapes with the same rating have more usable room

[artisthos]

I still dream of a tender that can act as a lifeboat. With our 32' hanging it off the stern is asking way too much. Still I would know everything about the craft and with a canvas cover with battens it may well serve the purpose. Thank you for the comments. Click here for a beer. Beer

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Suggest you contact a service center, bring the family down and climb inside to see the fit with each sitting with backs to tube and feet centered

Great answer, thanks

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by RPZ

I have to side with Fish53.

The most significant difference between an offshore life raft and any kind of dingy or inflatable/rib is shelter.

The greatest risk, short of a dunking in very cold water, is exposure. Depending on your general state of health, age, how much sleep you have had prior to ditching, calorific intake, exposure can take you down when you are wet and exposed to winds even in comparatively mild water and air temperatures.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have always assumed that by the time I got into my life raft in heavy weather I would be completely soaked and there would be an inch or two of water sloshing around inside the raft.

I also know that in full foulies with fleece under I can survive a lot of exposure--more than in a wet suit. I remember one night when I had to do an hours worth of work on deck in 30 knots and 28 degrees air temp I was pleasantly surprised how warm I was.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Perhaps it's already been mentioned, perhaps not. But liferafts have more uses than just in the event that you're sinking. Such as transferring crew from your vessel to another one in an emergency. Be it medical, that you've lost your rudder, & need to evacuate to a rescue vessel. But that it's too perilous to get your vessel in close proximity to the rescuing vessel for fear of being crushed... you, or your boat.

This scenario is quite common, even in conditions of good weather. Though it's also well publicized via such incidences of competitors rescuing one another in races which traverse the Southern Ocean. Like the Vendee.

Also, in dire situations you can put the liferaft into the water for an MOB. Whether you can find them yourself, but can't extract them from the water. Or if you can't find their exact position, & have to call in help for this. As it's possible that the MOB will be able to get to the raft, & climb in, thus vastly extending their survival time. In addition to their chances of being spotted & recovered. Either by the mother vessel, or outside help.
Such an incident is mentioned in a current thread on MOBs.

It also is definitely worth studying what the survival times are like for those on the ocean with weather protection, & those without. Ditto on how long survival times are while wearing different types of garments while immersed. As the numbers are truly eye openers for most folks.

For those who make light of the shelter provided by a raft's canopy, I'll be happy to continually hose you down on a 5 deg. C day, when the wind's blowing 30kts+ Or even a 15 deg. C day.
Cold water is why quite a large number of folks quit BUDS (SEAL Training), Ranger School, etc.

[Bulawayo]

Fish, The point that I will not accept is an individual mandating what MUST be carried. That is their opinion and it may not be correct for everyone when they dont even bother to identify the basics. The individuals circumstances should also be considered. In the Indian Ocean, for example, the number of service centres are limited and one could also question how thorough they are. The debate about a liferaft versus a ifeboat shall also probably never be agreed by everyone. They are certainly different tools but have the same ultimate purpose - saving of lives. One is active and the other is passive. Not enough recognition on this thread is being given to the fact that many craft are very suitable to survival with just a few basic additions.....or even that many semi-rigids are used as lifeboats. That also does not mean that every RIB is suitable for use as a lifeboat either (are v.small RIBS suitable?), just as many 'inappropriate' liferafts seen on some cruisers (coastal 6-8 person raft on a ocean going vessel with just two crew). As I said in a previous post, it it very much education driven. We also can acknowledge that modern communications, EPIRBS and satellite comms etc. do improve our survival position when reliant on a liferaft......but that we should possibly not be dependent upon them either. That is another debate, possible overcome by having more than one of each which leads to yet another debate regarding costs. Where does it stop?
For the purpose of transparency, and for 'old salts' as well as people new to sailing, it could be beneficial to list the con's of both options and let individuals make their own choice - where such a choice is possible. Some people with typically twenty years of experience or more, are so set in their ways that any alternative concepts are outside their sphere of knowledge and they are not open to reviewing alternatives or accepting that they even exist; this applies outside the world of boats as well. Its a bit like some people saying curtains have to be hung pattern outmost whilst others say pattern should face inwards with both saying '........and I know, because I have been doing it this way for the last forty years'. There is no 100% correct answer; its a choice for the individual.
I believe if this thread is to be of real benefit we should list the benefits of our own preferred solution - whilst avoiding criticising the alternative views.
My own choice for many years has been to provide additional bouyancy in the bows and sterns in the form of poured closed cell foam, in the hope that the mother vessel shall stay afloat whilst also having a dinghy with deep sea capability (mine is also rated as a lifeboat) equipped for survival.
How about the list?

Originally Posted by fish53

No one has advocated acquiring inadequate or inappropriate equipment for a planned voyage or area of operation, quite the opposite.

[Bulawayo]

Thank you, Pelagic. I understand all that you write. However, what is overlooked is that many dinghies (and I repeat that does not mean all) can be suitable alternatives.
The quality of a liferaft is paramount and many are not as good as peoples expectations as established by many boating magazine tests. The liferaft used by the Baileys bears testament. They were reliant on their Avon dinghy.
The testing regime is another potential flaw. Some testing stations will not allow witnessing. Why? It is easy to say go elsewhere - when you are in area that has choices. Do you then deviate to a facility that does allow but could be a thousand miles away? That alone can throw up further issues. Do you set your route schedule according to reputable liferaft testing stations as a criteria?
I really do consider that many of the posts are based upon knowledge garnered whilst sailing in communities that provide support and choices. Move into third world areas for protracted periods and other issues will become apparent.
Just what is the reluctance to consider dinghies as lifeboats or to promote the concepts? Anything that promotes life safety at sea should be considered as worthwhile.
I am now reading about concerns of exposure. This is relevant but I have already considered and commented on this in a previous thread. Our dinghies always have their canopy frame and material stored within the dinghies. I also appreciate that a double skinned rigid hull is less likely to have you sat in a possibly freezing puddle which can also make a difference. Our dinghy canopies are used frequently - mainly as sun shades but are kept aboard for survival purposes. My preferred choice would still be the inflatable canopy similar to those available with the old Tinkers - but I have not found a source.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Bulawayo....More an opinion than a dictate [emoji111]
But we do not seem to differ from the fact that they complement one another and my opinion is that it shouldn't be an either-or if you can manage it.

As to service, most large commercial ports will have a certified repacker and failing that, you can wait an extra year until you can and just boost your ditch bag.

I have always attended the deployment of my Liferafts and inspected them thoroughly for degradation.
Last year 2015 I deployed an old 1998 RFD in my back yard that was last serviced in 2006 and could no longer be certified.

It deployed perfectly and stayed inflated for months, however all the consumables were spoiled.

Only the lining in the canopy showed degradation.

Not advocating that you do not service properly, but that you get to know them as intimately as you would any other life saving equipment.