Do I Need A Life Raft

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

. . .
Just what is the reluctance to consider dinghies as lifeboats or to promote the concepts? Anything that promotes life safety at sea should be considered as worthwhile.
.. .

I cruised for decades with nothing but a dinghy.

But I did not kid myself about its being anything but a death-trap in anything above F7 or F8, and even that would require engine power, which obviously can't be maintained forever.

The answer to your question is one word -- STABILITY.

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[Bulawayo]

Thank you for the clarification, Dockhead. Much of that issue, when applied to dinghies, is dependent upon the specific design (previously mentioned). A number of dinghies are rated as lifeboats (previously mentioned) and do have inherent stability. I also believe that liferafts equally can have stability issues. One of the potential problems with a liferaft is when it is under utilised - typically a six man liferaft but only having two occupants. These practical issues often are overlooked - or dismissed as being 'nice to have the extra space' without the ramifications being acknowledged. What could make a significant difference is the use of a sea anchor or a drogue to the lifeboat dinghy. Liferafts gain their stability by being dependent upon water ballast pockets and a drogue for stability. I repeat that I do not consider all dinghies equal when it comes to their use as a lifeboat.
Liferaft durability has often been questioned and proven to be a weak link in the past. However, liferaft durabiity has been improved under SOLAS requirements - but how many yachtsmen carry a SOLAS approved liferaft (SOLAS being the standard for commercial vessels)? Also, familiarity with the equipment is important. We know of a yachtsman who's boat was breaking up and whom took to his liferaft (the story was published) and the fight the skipper and crew had to enter the liferaft. We heard the story first hand. The whole debacle including the accidental holing of the liferaft when trying to disconnect from the mother vessel provided valuable insight into what happens when panic/stress influences actions and equipment is unfamiliar.
It would be useful to have a credible authority conduct tests....... perhaps we could encourage a magazine like Practical Sailor to at least commence to investigate.
The criteria for selecting either is not as straightforward as some would have us believe. Im also not sure whether trying to have, maintain and deploy both is viable given the potential circumstances.
This could develop into a very interesting thread????

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I cruised for decades with nothing but a dinghy.

But I did not kid myself about its being anything but a death-trap in anything above F7 or F8, and even that would require engine power, which obviously can't be maintained forever.

The answer to your question is one word -- STABILITY.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Fish, The point that I will not accept is an individual mandating what MUST be carried. That is their opinion and it may not be correct for everyone when they dont even bother to identify the basics. The individuals circumstances should also be considered. In the Indian Ocean, for example, the number of service centres are limited and one could also question how thorough they are. The debate about a liferaft versus a ifeboat shall also probably never be agreed by everyone. They are certainly different tools but have the same ultimate purpose - saving of lives. One is active and the other is passive. Not enough recognition on this thread is being given to the fact that many craft are very suitable to survival with just a few basic additions.....or even that many semi-rigids are used as lifeboats. That also does not mean that every RIB is suitable for use as a lifeboat either (are v.small RIBS suitable?), just as many 'inappropriate' liferafts seen on some cruisers (coastal 6-8 person raft on a ocean going vessel with just two crew). As I said in a previous post, it it very much education driven. We also can acknowledge that modern communications, EPIRBS and satellite comms etc. do improve our survival position when reliant on a liferaft......but that we should possibly not be dependent upon them either. That is another debate, possible overcome by having more than one of each which leads to yet another debate regarding costs. Where does it stop?
For the purpose of transparency, and for 'old salts' as well as people new to sailing, it could be beneficial to list the con's of both options and let individuals make their own choice - where such a choice is possible. Some people with typically twenty years of experience or more, are so set in their ways that any alternative concepts are outside their sphere of knowledge and they are not open to reviewing alternatives or accepting that they even exist; this applies outside the world of boats as well. Its a bit like some people saying curtains have to be hung pattern outmost whilst others say pattern should face inwards with both saying '........and I know, because I have been doing it this way for the last forty years'. There is no 100% correct answer; its a choice for the individual.
I believe if this thread is to be of real benefit we should list the benefits of our own preferred solution - whilst avoiding criticising the alternative views.
My own choice for many years has been to provide additional bouyancy in the bows and sterns in the form of poured closed cell foam, in the hope that the mother vessel shall stay afloat whilst also having a dinghy with deep sea capability (mine is also rated as a lifeboat) equipped for survival.
How about the list?

I'm reluctant to comment and appear to be dictating, please use whatever you wish and I'll do likewise.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Thank you for the clarification, Dockhead. Much of that issue, when applied to dinghies, is dependent upon the specific design (previously mentioned). A number of dinghies are rated as lifeboats (previously mentioned) and do have inherent stability. I also believe that liferafts equally can have stability issues. One of the potential problems with a liferaft is when it is under utilised - typically a six man liferaft but only having two occupants. These practical issues often are overlooked - or dismissed as being 'nice to have the extra space' without the ramifications being acknowledged. What could make a significant difference is the use of a sea anchor or a drogue to the lifeboat dinghy. Liferafts gain their stability by being dependent upon water ballast pockets and a drogue for stability. I repeat that I do not consider all dinghies equal when it comes to their use as a lifeboat.
Liferaft durability has often been questioned and proven to be a weak link in the past. However, liferaft durabiity has been improved under SOLAS requirements - but how many yachtsmen carry a SOLAS approved liferaft (SOLAS being the standard for commercial vessels)? Also, familiarity with the equipment is important. We know of a yachtsman who's boat was breaking up and whom took to his liferaft (the story was published) and the fight the skipper and crew had to enter the liferaft. We heard the story first hand. The whole debacle including the accidental holing of the liferaft when trying to disconnect from the mother vessel provided valuable insight into what happens when panic/stress influences actions and equipment is unfamiliar.
It would be useful to have a credible authority conduct tests....... perhaps we could encourage a magazine like Practical Sailor to at least commence to investigate.
The criteria for selecting either is not as straightforward as some would have us believe. Im also not sure whether trying to have, maintain and deploy both is viable given the potential circumstances.
This could develop into a very interesting thread????

I agree completely with all of the above comments about potential issues with life rafts. YES - YOU have to choose a good one, YES, you must not UNDER load it (this why I carry 2x four-man rafts, YES, you must be familiar with the gear (why I always not only attend, but participate in servicing both my rafts).

Yes, there are risks and pitfalls in using liferafts. But none of that that somehow makes a dinghy usable at sea in big conditions.

My previous dinghy was a heavy, double-hulled, large tube, wheel-steered Avon 340. Vastly more seaworthy than the average cruiser's dink. I've been out in it in F6. No way in hell would I prefer that, to even a bad life raft, in any kind of weather. It is simply not capable of keeping the passengers out of the water. It would be a death-trap.

In calm weather it's a different story, and a much easier problem. I'd take BOTH raft and dink, tethered together, as others have suggested.

And on my winter refit list is better drogues for the rafts.



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[Pelagic]

Thanks Dockhead for reinforcing the need to get to know your life raft at each service opportunity

Another point that makes a life raft your first line of defense, (when forced to abandon) is its speed of deployment when seconds count.

Choosing the best life raft requires you to educate and study the system

Unfortunately a major patented stability improvement in Liferafts was inhibited by a copyright fight and the major manufacturers then doing their best to discredit the holder, who refused a buyout.

The late Jim Givens had developed a very good product but any defects in his rafts were blown out of proportion and his business never took off.

First link shows the system.

I used them for years until they were no longer available and Jim died.

https://youtu.be/6hqIBtne1tM

https://youtu.be/KoDGeBBECxA

[kmacdonald]

OK already. You can stop now. I know I don't need a life raft. After all, what could go wrong?

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks Dockhead for reinforcing the need to get to know your life raft at each service opportunity

Another point that makes a life raft your first line of defense, (when forced to abandon) is its speed of deployment when seconds count.

Choosing the best life raft requires you to educate and study the system

Unfortunately a major patented stability improvement in Liferafts was inhibited by a copyright fight and the major manufacturers then doing their best to discredit the holder, who refused a buyout.

The late Jim Givens had developed a very good product but any defects in his rafts were blown out of proportion and his business never took off.

First link shows the system.

I used them for years until they were no longer available and Jim died.

https://youtu.be/6hqIBtne1tM

https://youtu.be/KoDGeBBECxA

Looks like it might be a great life raft. But their web site is lost at sea. Links on testimonials don't work, no product info. .

http://www.givensliferafts.com/

[Pelagic]

Yes, the company crashed and folded after Jim died as the family fought over the remains.

But this system had really proven itself and saved many people in the worst conditions.

Would like to know if there is a similar design available?

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Yes, the company crashed and folded after Jim died as the family fought over the remains.

But this system had really proven itself and saved many people in the worst conditions.

Would like to know if there is a similar design available?

Well, they are paid up for their domain name till 2018 (2 year renewal is pretty much standard now), and if you click on the dealer link they give the impression they will have someone contact you for sales?

Think I will use their contact form to see if they have units for sale.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Well, they are paid up for their domain name till 2018 (2 year renewal is pretty much standard now), and if you click on the dealer link they give the impression they will have someone contact you for sales?

Think I will use their contact form to see if they have units for sale.

Form-mail mail on "Contact Us" doesn't work. However, the phone number does ring through, but no answer. Will call Monday and report back.

[Pelagic]

I think you are wasting your time with Givens....they have had a lot of internal problems with different investors and representatives trying to capture their loyal market and provide service.

Most have 'given' up....(pun intended.

Be careful if someone answers the phone.

My biggest hope is that the patent has expired and it will be copied

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think you are wasting your time with Givens....they have had a lot of internal problems with different investors and representatives trying to capture their loyal market and provide service.

Most have 'given' up....(pun intended.

Be careful if someone answers the phone

Understand, but will give it the old college try anyway

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by crabcake

That begs the question, why would someone be out in such extreme conditions?

Boat is traveling from points A to B and heavy weather approaches faster than it can get out of the way.

[donradcliffe]

Just in case you think any SOLAS survival gear is going to help you in F12, this was all that was found floating from the ship El Faro with 33 souls on board:

On October 5, an unidentified body in a survival suit, presumed to be from El Faro, was found but was not recovered. According to the rescue diver, the body was unrecognizable and was left to be retrieved later in the day. However, a failure in the positioning device SLDMB ultimately resulted in losing the body.[34][35] Several other unopened suits were recovered.[36] A deflated life raft and a heavily damaged lifeboat—one of two aboard El Faro, each capable of carrying 43 people and stocked with food and water for a few days—with no one aboard were also found.

[Pelagic]

Don, look at the Givens video:
195 knot winds and 35ft hurricane seas.

They had a number of testimonials from survivers of extreme conditions.