Cone poll

[seabum]

I fear that the boaters who don't know what the upside down black cone means are mostly motor boaters (I could be wrong, and note the word "mostly" so don't jump on me). They are also the ones who are not going to understand that if a sailboat is moving along at 5-7s kts into the wind with just the main up and close-hauled, that boat is most likely motoring.


Also, does anyone have any good ideas of how to rig such upside black cones in the fore-triangle of sailboats now that the vast majority of us have all-furling foresails (i.e. we have no available forward halyards)? Thanks.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by seabum

I fear that the boaters who don't know what the upside down black cone means are mostly motor boaters (I could be wrong, and note the word "mostly" so don't jump on me). They are also the ones who are not going to understand that if a sailboat is moving along at 5-7s kts into the wind with just the main up and close-hauled, that boat is most likely motoring.


Also, does anyone have any good ideas of how to rig such upside black cones in the fore-triangle of sailboats now that the vast majority of us have all-furling foresails (i.e. we have no available forward halyards)? Thanks.

Of prime issue as to a sailboat is that cones [motoring] and/or cylinders [constrained by draft] are blocked from view on some angles if one is flying a head sail. So dropping or furling the headsail seems to be the only way to properly reveal the day marker(s).

Positioning does require a halyard.

Seemingly to raise up a forestay e.g., by attaching with hanks which separate forestay is ahead of the furler.

Alternatively, one can use a spare halyard that clips to the pulpit and it hangs on there ahead of the forestay so can be seen on either tack, or perhaps attach the day marker to the clew of the sail and then furl the sail to display the marker, or furl the foresails and then uses an halyard attached to an inner forestay deck tack.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by seabum

I fear that the boaters who don't know what the upside down black cone means are mostly motor boaters (I could be wrong, and note the word "mostly" so don't jump on me). They are also the ones who are not going to understand that if a sailboat is moving along at 5-7s kts into the wind with just the main up and close-hauled, that boat is most likely motoring.


Also, does anyone have any good ideas of how to rig such upside black cones in the fore-triangle of sailboats now that the vast majority of us have all-furling foresails (i.e. we have no available forward halyards)? Thanks.

If the boater who doesn’t know the colregs doesn’t recognise that you’re motorsailing, that’s mostly on him. It’s likely he’s not going to be adhering to many of the other colregs, and so you would approach with the appropriate amount of care and be prepared to make avoiding action as necessary. At close quarters I wouldn’t put money on any motor boater doing the right thing.

If you don’t have a spare halyard then you should probably think about rigging one as a spare. Most people use the spinnaker halyard if they don’t have a dedicated “spare” jib halyard — I can’t imagine ever motorsailing with a spinnaker. Attach the short line below the cone it to the deck somewhere forward of the mast.

[dangerfield55]

Question. Does anyone routinely give a long blast in the air horn when leaving a slip or a long blast and three short ones indicating leaving with engines reversed?

[Snore]

Since the cone or ball will be suspended 1/2 way up, one can use the flag halyard pulled forward.

Regarding whistles- one prolonged is required for commercial vessels, not for recreational. I whistle only if the boat I am running is large and the marina is crazy busy with many credit card captains.

I do blow 3 shorts sometimes when a vessel is following me and I need to back down to enter a fairway stern first and back into a slip. 90% of the time I get a very confused look from the vessel behind me.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Snore

Regarding whistles- one prolonged is required for commercial vessels, not for recreational. I whistle only if the boat I am running is large and the marina is crazy busy with many credit card captains.

I don't believe the Inland Rules make any such distinction - it simply applies to power-driven vessels.

In the Canadian rules, it applies to vessels over 12m long, and has a few added exceptions.

This rule doesn't exist in the IRPCS, so might have many participants in this forum scratching their heads.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Snore

Since the cone or ball will be suspended 1/2 way up, one can use the flag halyard pulled forward.

Regarding whistles- one prolonged is required for commercial vessels, not for recreational. I whistle only if the boat I am running is large and the marina is crazy busy with many credit card captains.

I do blow 3 shorts sometimes when a vessel is following me and I need to back down to enter a fairway stern first and back into a slip. 90% of the time I get a very confused look from the vessel behind me.

Okay a COLREG fine point question: Is it appropriate to also sound 3 short tone signals when the sailboat is sailing backwards, or is such signal an expression of intent and action reserved for when maneuvering under auxiliary motor power? I suspect it is to used whenever one is going to go stern first. Ha, and would that include when backing down to deploy an anchor [or dragging anchor]?

Indeed very louds noises emitted from a boat in a marina tend to get heads turned and either expressions of confusion or annoyance, or both simultaneously with a touch of startle reaction added. "What's s/he doing that for?" or "Dang, that was rude to disturb the peace like that; or, s/he awakened me from my nap? [truly dislike the 4 AM wakeup blast, saying good bye / good day to all in port]"

Thinking about it, I have yet to hear a yacht utilize the sound signal when sailing backwards such as the start line of a race, maneuvering downwind through a mooring field, backing off a soft grounding, or leaving a dock into a fairway. But as to communicating a vessels action it seems like a good idea, at least to those relative few who may be in the know so as to properly interpret.

Signals are as useful as words if both parties know the "language" and as useless as words if either of the two parties don't know the "language", or if the recipient is not watching or listening, [think looking at their iPad or smart phone with ear buds on].

As the sage old expressions go:

Ya can't fix stupid!

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!

[Cheechako]

Sure use a cone all the time.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Okay a COLREG fine point question: Is it appropriate to also sound 3 short tone signals when the sailboat is sailing backwards, or is such signal an expression of intent and action reserved for when maneuvering under auxiliary motor power? I suspect it is to used whenever one is going to go stern first. Ha, and would that include when backing down to deploy an anchor [or dragging anchor]?

Ruole 34(a) When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when manoeuvring as authorized or required by these Rules, shall indicate that manoeuvre by the following signals on
her whistle.


So:
Sailboat sailing backwards: No. (a power-driven vessel shall)

Backing down on an anchor? No. (The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor,...)

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Sure use a cone all the time.

Good on you. And an appropriate post and signal given that this is a Cruisers and Sailing forum.

Similarly, I have heard that it may be wise to put up a cannister day signal in order to remind the skipper that the keelboat they are commanding is constrained by draft when operating near shallow waters so as aid in keeping the skipper's presence of mind that s/he may end up grounding the boat. Navigating by braille can become problematic. But then that is why they invented shoal draft boats, so as to enable finding the shoals. Afterall, grounding is just an alternative way to anchor, albeit with minimal scope of rode.

I particularly enjoy exploring inlets and coves with a swing keel vessel; when someone onboard hesitantly asks is it deep enough to take the boat there, one can just confidently answer, well we will find out soon enough. Bumping bottom essentially being not an issue when the keel just pivots upwards upon making contact, ditto for the rudder. Being able to transition from 6 feet shoal depth to a mere 21 inches in under a minute opens up an expanse of close to shoreline viewing and recreational beachings.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Okay a COLREG fine point question: Is it appropriate to also sound 3 short tone signals when the sailboat is sailing backwards, or is such signal an expression of intent and action reserved for when maneuvering under auxiliary motor power? I suspect it is to used whenever one is going to go stern first. Ha, and would that include when backing down to deploy an anchor [or dragging anchor]?

3 short doesn't mean "I'm going backwards", it means "I'm operating astern propulsion." So it may be appropriate to sound when backing down on the anchor. Sounding the manoeuvring signals is subject to application of a little common sense - is there any other vessel that would hear the signal; or operating where a risk of collision might exist, and that information would be pertinent.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by StuM

Ruole 34(a) When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when manoeuvring as authorized or required by these Rules, shall indicate that manoeuvre by the following signals on
her whistle.


So:
Sailboat sailing backwards: No. (a power-driven vessel shall)

Backing down on an anchor? No. (The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor,...)

Stu thanks for the clarification, so there is a distinction as to some of the rules for sound signals between "power-driven" and sail / wind driven vessels; does that apply to double enders as well ?

So thus a sailboat sailing backwards be like:

https://gph.is/2uy7roz

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

3 short doesn't mean "I'm going backwards", it means "I'm operating astern propulsion." So it may be appropriate to sound when backing down on the anchor. Sounding the manoeuvring signals is subject to application of a little common sense - is there any other vessel that would hear the signal; or operating where a risk of collision might exist, and that information would be pertinent.

Got it! When underpower to stop forward progress or reversing. toot, toot, toot.

I just read: The third maneuver is "operating astern propulsion." This is not the same as "proceeding astern." You may of course be moving forward or astern or stopped when your astern propulsion is engaged. The state of the machinery, not motion through the water, constitutes the distinction here."


Well that certainly is one way to let everyone know you have arrived at the crowded anchorage, but you have indicated the caveat "operating where a risk of collision might exist." Being the vessel performing the anchoring, yeah there are those times when the maneuvering to anchor boat is at risk of colliding with another anchored vessel, so a heads up, "I'm here and ready or not, headed your way", may be a welcome notice to fellow seafarers to deploy additional bumpers because I'm going to make it close quarters.

"Little commonsense", now that is a the crux of the matter. Shouldn't there be an international signal for indicating operating under little commonsense? Ah, but then so many boats would be required to signal such that it probably would be better to just have the minority of boats that are operating under commonsense to display there status, or intent.

I find it interesting the distinction between Inland rules and International rules. Reference: Rule 34

"Rule 34 is one of the few areas in the navigation rules where the requirements in the International Rules and Inland Rules are so different that each version must be discussed separately. Maneuvering signals are one of the major areas of difference between the two sets of Rules and may well be the most significant difference. Although the basic International and Inland maneuvering signals bear no resemblance to each other, several Rule 34 provisions are the same. Paragraph (d)/doubt signal, (e)/bend signal, and (f)/whistle separation, are identical.

What is the basic difference between the two? The International Rule maneuvering signals are often said to be signals of action: I am turning right. The Inland Rule signals, on the other hand, communicate not what you are doing now but what you intend to do. They are signals of intent: I plan to leave you to port.

Your Inland maneuvering signal is not a statement, but rather a question, or perhaps more exactly a proposition. You propose your intention to the other vessel--"I intend such-and-such a maneuver, unless you have an objection." You wait for a definite response before acting, because the other vessel has veto power. More on this later.


INTERNATIONAL

(a) When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway, when maneuvering as authorized or required by these Rules, shall indicate that maneuver by the following signals on her whistle:

--one short blast to mean "I am altering my course to starboard";

--two short blasts to mean "I am altering my course to port";

--three short blasts to mean "I am operating astern propulsion".

The International Rules requirements apply to power-driven vessels in sight of another vessel (power-driven or not) when maneuvering as authorized or required by the Rules. In good visibility you may be able to see another vessel ten to twenty miles away, but you need not give signals for such long ranges because the other vessel wouldn't hear your signals. On even the largest vessels, the required range of whistles is only two miles. On smaller vessels, the required range is much less (see Annex III)."

Now just imagine if we used sound signals when driving. I intend to overtake you on your starboard, erhhh, right. I got back to Montana from a business trip to England not long ago, it takes a while to get used to the left lane being the slow lane in the UK, being a Yank, I'm so always desiring to pass on the left and there not being many roads where I get to drive 80+ mph for hours on end.

[dangerfield55]

I believe the Inland water rules apply to most harbors, Great Lakes and most waterways we all navigate. Under those rules a sailboat under power is a power boat. Giving a long blast when leaving a dock applies to ALL power boats. Is anyone doing this? I may start as it makes a lot of sense for safety.

[dangerfield55]

Where do COL REGS apply