Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

[micah719]

Orienteering?....you mean looking at points on land, etc...then finding your position in relation to where they are on a chart (with practice you can become relatively accurate at a glance)...with sighting compass an a ruler you can be spot on.

Well...yes and no.

The land sport of Orienteering I used to participate in was running a course cross-country, checkpoint to checkpoint. We'd have a little card which we stamped with a unique marker at each point to prove we'd been there. The maps were generally 1:5000 so they showed a lot of detail. The folks that chose the route were sneaky though, put us through some very rough country and were geniuses at putting the waypoints so that one could very easily get confused; especially when under pressure. There were other little games, ones with cryptic clues for the location of the checkpoint instead of a grid reference, relays, etc. Plenty of room to test the ingenuity of the course designers, and the skill and cunning of the competitors. No matter how fit & fast or skilful with map & compass, or familiar with the area, someone always found a way to make it a challenge. There were also always dodges to beat them...not cheating, just running smart. A good way to learn. It would be interesting to sit down with some boaties and come up with something different than the old round-the-bouys tailchase; and be more attractive for a wide variety of folks and their favourite boats. Perhaps even cruisers....

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Which is why I have one very small display. I'm not ready for my sailboat cockpit to look like the cockpit of a 747.

Small display in a moving cockpit vs. a chart big enough to spread out on the table so you can see where everything is and/or will be...small chart plotter, GPS to use in cockpit (small sized charts or chart book are also an option).

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by micah719

Well...yes and no.

The land sport of Orienteering I used to participate in was running a course cross-country, checkpoint to checkpoint. We'd have a little card which we stamped with a unique marker at each point to prove we'd been there. The maps were generally 1:5000 so they showed a lot of detail. The folks that chose the route were sneaky though, put us through some very rough country and were geniuses at putting the waypoints so that one could very easily get confused; especially when under pressure. There were other little games, ones with cryptic clues for the location of the checkpoint instead of a grid reference, relays, etc. Plenty of room to test the ingenuity of the course designers, and the skill and cunning of the competitors. No matter how fit & fast or skilful with map & compass, or familiar with the area, someone always found a way to make it a challenge. There were also always dodges to beat them...not cheating, just running smart. A good way to learn. It would be interesting to sit down with some boaties and come up with something different than the old round-the-bouys tailchase; and be more attractive for a wide variety of folks and their favourite boats. Perhaps even cruisers....

In my home port we started doing three island races which developed from the famous "Three Peaks Races" it has worked well.
I think your idea would serve well as part of a training/sailing school program probably at the end to test what has been taught in a very practical way. I see lots of merit in that way.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by conachair

Slight drift but related. Being a more, err, frugal sailor, cm93 and opencpn form the electronic side of things.
So do the higher end charting system have tidal stream data included? I can get tidal heights for pretty much anywhere on opencpn which makes passage planning so easy compared with paper, but still need to hunt down some tidal diamonds on a paper chart for the velocities.

Raymarine I have using navionic charts has tidal stream data, but surprisingly, the state of the art ECDIS on my work boat does not.
On the navionic electronic charts, the tidal stream diamonds are the same as that on the paper charts, but gives the data at a glance, rather than if using paper a bit of thinking is needed.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

That would be nothing but a bragging contest. I will predict right now that the people who have been sailing 30 years will be better at it than the people who have been sailing 2. Although I think I know a couple of people who have been sailing for decades who would really struggle without electronics.

if the OP wanted to whack a hornet's nest with a stick, he did a good job, but I think he is the only person who agreed with the title of the thread.

I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

Small display in a moving cockpit vs. a chart big enough to spread out on the table so you can see where everything is and/or will be...small chart plotter, GPS to use in cockpit (small sized charts or chart book are also an option).

Mostly what I use is a charbook that is typically half the size of the standard chart book. However, it has more charts in it, so I have the detail I need. But I also have larger rolled charts to give me the big picture.

I would not want to sail only with the chart plotter. I like having that big picture.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.

We all know chart plotters can fail. We have no rational reason to think that the entire satellite system is going to implode, but since only one poster said to dump all the paper ... this is all getting really silly.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

I wasn't talking about doing without, just because you can. I am talking about making comfortable transition for when electronics/electrial system DOES fail.

Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!

[wolfenzee]

The thread has evolved to explain/defend the importance of paper charts. Personally I am more comfortable looking at paper charts.
One thing that hasn't been discussed is theft...electronics are at the top of a thefts list...charts aren't worth the bother.

[micah719]

One thing that worries me about chart navigation single handed at night is.....how does one juggle the helm, sails and chart, without losing night vision and situational awareness, or control of the boat especially when you can't leave the cockpit?

One idea that came to me was; Since I'll have my chart table on the starboard side of the fwd companionway, how about a porthole in the cockpit bulkhead with a big lens and a rubber shroud over it like the old radar screens, so that with very faint green illumination on the chart I can see the whole chart at a glance, without leaving the cockpit, or trying to manage a bit of paper in the wet & wind. Nice low-tech solution, must try it and see. Have to watch out in strong sunlight and calm weather though: don't want to set fire to me charts....

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!

In fact, she may be safer calling for help than using a jack she doesn't have much experience with and vulnerable to anyone who would come along. A case can be made for it.

And a can of "fix-a-flat" is not a bad idea. I'm not opposed to her learning how to change a tire but it really might not be all that good an idea. I was taught, by the police, to stay in my locked car and call for help as the safest option. Batteries are easily charged and there are very few places in the USA that have no reception.

Sometimes being willing to rely on someone known to be safe (ex: the Geico road assistance guy who came to help me when I was on the highway by myself with a shredded tire) was not scary at all, but I would not accept help from any strange man who happened to come along and want to help.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by micah719

One thing that worries me about chart navigation single handed at night is.....how does one juggle the helm, sails and chart, without losing night vision and situational awareness, or control of the boat especially when you can't leave the cockpit?

One idea that came to me was; Since I'll have my chart table on the starboard side of the fwd companionway, how about a porthole in the cockpit bulkhead with a big lens and a rubber shroud over it like the old radar screens, so that with very faint green illumination on the chart I can see the whole chart at a glance, without leaving the cockpit, or trying to manage a bit of paper in the wet & wind. Nice low-tech solution, must try it and see. Have to watch out in strong sunlight and calm weather though: don't want to set fire to me charts....

Autopilot....

[zeehag]

paper charts are not worth the bother to steal unless you are cruising and happen to meet the man who steals paper charts--he is currently in sea of cortez, so , anyone there, be aware there is a cruiser who steals from cruisers out there....he WILL board your boat to steal em also. i saw as he was leaving mine . i ended up having to sail to la cruz sans paper charts---

there is also someone reported to have sailed to ensenada using only land maps..LOL..... the gods do watch over fools and drunks.

last time i priced used charts they were 20 to 50 dollars each. that was last year. new ones re up to 100 dollars per each in some areas. not worthy of theft??? depends on where you are sailing.

[wolfenzee]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Some people i guess drive with no spare tyre, when in trouble they simply call for help, me i like to fend for myself i even have an emergency tyre repair kit. Used both a couple of times. Not a biggie!!!

Tried hard to get my daughter to do the same but she said Dad with a mobile phone you can get roadside assistance!!!

Flat batteries, lost phone, reception permitting!!!!!!

Some people stay close enough to "civilization" and tech support, ... I have heard of people making a distress call when thier GPS or radar go down and very often see vessel assist pulling in sailboats who have run out of diesel(on a nice breezy day).

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by wolfenzee

Some people stay close enough to "civilization" and tech support, ... I have heard of people making a distress call when thier GPS or radar go down and very often see vessel assist pulling in sailboats who have run out of diesel(on a nice breezy day).