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Old 09-10-2012, 22:51   #751
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Cookiesa View Post
I do carry paper charts but I also find it interesting the for hundreds of years mariners have ran aground, long before gps, long before "electronics" came in to play, yet we collectively seem to have drawn a line in the sand that paper charts are the bee all and end all of navigation, only since plotters and gps have people thrown caution to the wind and perhaps sailed without the correct charts for the region they were travelling in (someone better go tell all those explorers how foolhardy and irresponsible they were/are)

I beleive both have their place, whilstI also suspect there is a lot of emotional arguments thrust forward rather than fact or reality.

Whatever gets you out there!

I was on a boat a couple of weeks ago that had most, but not all, the paper charts it needed, with chart plotter as primary navigation.

Circuit breaker in a bad location. Breaker for chart plotter had a glass tube fuse in it. Board hit circuit breaker, broke holder for fuse. No chart plotter.

As the helmsman was taking the boat into a channel between markers 2 and 3, I called out that I'd seen the chart and that this was a very bad idea. He didn't believe me and asked me to bring up the chart.

That was when it dawned on me that I had seen the waters not on a paper chart but on the nonfunctional chart plotter.

Fortunately the helmsman decided to believe me, turned the boat around and out the way we came in, went further out, found the right channel and went in at marker #1. Lots of "bumps" in that area but all we had for navigation was my memory of what I had seen on the chart plotter.

IMO gotta have paper. The chart might blow overboard; someone might break a fuse holder; but maybe BOTH things won't happen ...
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Old 09-10-2012, 23:43   #752
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Cookiesa View Post
we collectively seem to have drawn a line in the sand that paper charts are the bee all and end all of navigation
I don't think anyone believes that paper charts are the "be all and end all" of navigation. They contain the same sub-marine information as electronic charts and have the same degree of accuracy. There is no doubt that GPS is brilliant. It gives your position with great accuracy on the surface of the ocean.

I navigate primarily by GPS, but transfer my plots to paper. Paper these days can still be used as a primary nav source, even though most now use electronic plotters and GPS instead of sextants and DR. The point is that as a back up, paper is foolproof and requires nothing more than knowledge, and a few rudimentary tools, to use; no batteries, no pixels, no ICBs, fuses, backlights etc.

GPS chartplotters are the best invention in decades, but offshore, a backup is mandatory.
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Old 10-10-2012, 00:00   #753
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Auzzee View Post
Who gives a bugger about how they are created?! The question is to their validity on a voyaging boat. A prudent mariner will not rely solely on electronics. To do so is to invite peril which will usually strike at the point where the greatest potential loss becomes apparent.

Without GPS, those without paper charts are in serious strife. However, with a paper backup, and the knowledge required to safely navigate a boat, there is no cause for trepidation.

Indeed, even those who manufacture GPS, still issue a disclaimer which calls them an aid to navigation only, and say that the GPS should not be the sole form of navigational reliance.

I have a chartplotter and a handheld GPS, but I cannot imagine weighing anchor without first having the appropriate paper charts covering my intended route. Incidentally, despite my electronic depth sounders, I still have a leadline as a backup.
I concur totally a land based analogy is driving without a spare tyre, relying on the fantastic and reliable tyres of today......

This thread has generated so much comment it's quite amazing, we are heading off to Turkey soon from Croatia, tasks prior are, change oils/filters, check all fittings, get hold of Pilots for Greece/Turkey, get paper charts, already have whole of Med in plotter but that's not enough.....

Can't see how anyone could head to sea without all tools available to them... CHEERS
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:33   #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I was on a boat a couple of weeks ago that had most, but not all, the paper charts it needed, with chart plotter as primary navigation.

Circuit breaker in a bad location. Breaker for chart plotter had a glass tube fuse in it. Board hit circuit breaker, broke holder for fuse. No chart plotter.

As the helmsman was taking the boat into a channel between markers 2 and 3, I called out that I'd seen the chart and that this was a very bad idea. He didn't believe me and asked me to bring up the chart.

That was when it dawned on me that I had seen the waters not on a paper chart but on the nonfunctional chart plotter.

Fortunately the helmsman decided to believe me, turned the boat around and out the way we came in, went further out, found the right channel and went in at marker #1. Lots of "bumps" in that area but all we had for navigation was my memory of what I had seen on the chart plotter.

IMO gotta have paper. The chart might blow overboard; someone might break a fuse holder; but maybe BOTH things won't happen ...
No passage plan then.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:41   #755
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Auzzee View Post
Without GPS, those without paper charts are in serious strife. However, with a paper backup, and the knowledge required to safely navigate a boat, there is no cause for trepidation.
.
Electronic charts still function without GPS input. The loss of GPS input effects those with and without paper charts equally. There is no need to fear "serious strife" if the GPS fails and there are only electronic charts.


Multiple electronic chart backups generally equates to multiple GPS back ups frequently with their own battery supply, so GPS failure is less likely occur on boats who have spent their money on electronic rather than paper systems.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:57   #756
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Which Yanmar?

For prolonged running, a pleasure boat engine a good operating speed is around 85% of maximum continuous rated RPM (see the engine data plate)
assuming the propeller size is correct and the engine can reach maximum rpm).
See this list for approximate rpm:

GM - 4JH - 3/4JH2 series 2900rpm

YM series Depending on WOT rpm 2600-2900rpm

4LH and 6LY series 2650rpm

6LP and 3/4JH3 series 3000rpm

3/4JH4 series 2400rpm

6CX series 2200rpm

Yanmar Marine Engine Help
I didn't think this could be completely true. The website quoted above is NOT an official YANMAR website. I tried to get to YANMAR corporate, but they refer everyone to their dealers. I talked with one of their long service dealers here in Denmark. I asked the question as follows:

I have a 4JH5E Yanmar. I normally run this at 1800/2000 RPM. The engine has a listed maximum rpm of 3000. I have recently been told that 1800/2000 rpm is "way below optimal" and the engine should be run at 80-85% of maximum (2400/2500 rpm). I believe this to be incorrect. What is the optimal rpm range for my engine (and other yanmar diesels for sailboats).

I have translated his answer below.

"Your sources are not giving you a correct answer to your question. Your engine will not be damaged by running it at either 2000 or 2400 rpm. Furthermore there is no evidence, empiric or otherwise, for suggesting that the engine benefits from being run at 80% of maximum load (rpm). The proper amount of rpms relates to your vessel. The engine should not run so fast that the stern begins to "set" into the water. Higher rpms than this will increase the load (causing increased engine wear) and increase your fuel consumption."

I've also checked the specifications on Yanmar boat engines. The "2Y" and "3Y" series engines have maximum rpms of 3600. At 80% these would have to run at 2880 rpms.

However, the "knee" of the torque curve is at 2400 and 2500 rpm respectively. Running the engine at higher than optimal torque will result in reduced performance and increased fuel consumption.

For the "3J" and "4J" series the maximum rpms is 3000 (3200 for the 4JH4-TE and 4JH4-HTE). The "knee" of the torque curve is at 1750, 1800, 1800 and 2000 respectively.

Running at 80% would mean running the engine at approx. 2400.

So - I still find it very difficult to believe that a Yanmar engine run at 2800 (as noted in Rakuflames post above) has been run "Way below optimal". It has not.

We can agree that letting an engine run at idle for several days i not optimal, but several days of idling will not kill a new engine.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:23   #757
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Ah, what's that gadget called that you install under your chart table enabling you to use paper charts and a little mouse-like thingy for plotting positions, bearings etc....they even have a small boat version...and I'm too lazy to dig in my archives or go searching the web...
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:43   #758
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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No passage plan then.

We were not destination sailing, just toodling around, trying the boat out.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:44   #759
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Electronic charts still function without GPS input. The loss of GPS input effects those with and without paper charts equally. There is no need to fear "serious strife" if the GPS fails and there are only electronic charts.


Multiple electronic chart backups generally equates to multiple GPS back ups frequently with their own battery supply, so GPS failure is less likely occur on boats who have spent their money on electronic rather than paper systems.

My backup is a black and white handheld (I had a colored one also, but it went belly up). It stinks as a chart plotter. I use it for two things: it will confirm my lat and long if my chartplotter fails, and its anchor alarm can be heard.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:17   #760
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
My backup is a black and white handheld (I had a colored one also, but it went belly up). It stinks as a chart plotter. I use it for two things: it will confirm my lat and long if my chartplotter fails, and its anchor alarm can be heard.
It's a backup GPS then, not a backup electronic chart.

To eliminate paper charts up you need IMHO multiple valid electronic chart systems some with an independent battery supply.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:34   #761
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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It's a backup GPS then, not a backup electronic chart.

To eliminate paper charts up you need IMHO multiple valid electronic chart systems some with an independent battery supply.
That is in the regulations in Canada.

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Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage requirements are listed in the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 of the Canada Shipping Act.

CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations. CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances. CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS). CHS raster charts meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
Of course ECDIS also require training as well as redundancy. A chartplotter is not an ECDIS.
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:12   #762
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Here is another thread started today to reaffirm the need for paper charts.
Garmin won't support Unlocking old device charts
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:19   #763
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

The legal situation will vary depending on country of registration and occasional the country whose territorial water you are in.
In many countries legislation has lagged behind technological advancements, mandating outmoded equipment without embracing newer equipment that can have a greater impact on safety. Nevertheless, I would recommend everyone follows the letter of the law that is applicable to their situation.

ECDIS is not designed, or suitable for smaller private boat use.
The legislation, safety equipment and training required for larger merchant ships will always, sensibly, be greater than for smaller pleasure vessels.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:11   #764
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Here is another thread started today to reaffirm the need for paper charts.
Garmin won't support Unlocking old device charts
Not sure how that reaffirms the need for paper charts?

The locked charts are not ones they have paid to use yet. It isn't they can't use the ones they have paid for. The same analogy is not having the paper chart.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:38   #765
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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It's a backup GPS then, not a backup electronic chart.

To eliminate paper charts up you need IMHO multiple valid electronic chart systems some with an independent battery supply.

Well, that was my point ... it makes a terrible electronic chart IMO.

I personally don't think paper charts should be eliminated and as long as they print them and I'm sailing, I'll use them.

I will also use my chart plotter, and if something happened to it I'd sell all my t-shirts and buy another.
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