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Old 21-08-2012, 09:10   #556
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

That's enough Zee and Raku, please get back on topic.
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Old 21-08-2012, 09:10   #557
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Old 21-08-2012, 12:52   #558
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

As far as electronic charts being more accurate...the BSB electronic charts come from NOAA and are the same charts.
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Old 21-08-2012, 13:13   #559
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Frankly, I am comfortable with either electronic or paper. In areas where I sail most frequently, I tend to use my personally annotated paper charts until I get to a harbour or port of call. In less frequented waters chart plotter is fine since one may not always have the requisite or most up-to-date paper charts. As wolfenzee says, NOAA and BSB are pretty much the same. It's all a matter of using all the tools in the tool box.
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Old 21-08-2012, 14:02   #560
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Just curious of how many here have crossed the Pacific or the Atlantic without paper charts of destinations you had planned on visiting? On the last crossing of Pacific I do not recall any cruiser who did not have paper charts along with computer charts or chart plotter charts.

I know there were many younger cruisers who could not afford paper but they always had copies made from other cruisers charts. Usually not very good copies but at least it gave them the chance to study destinations and entrances into harbors without the problems of trying to study electronic charts zoomed in to see all markers and all problems that may lay ahead.

For me it is too hard to get a good picture of a difficult entrance that I have never visited before if I have to zoom in and out to see eveything that is on the electronic chart ahead of me. I just can't get a good visual in my mind using electronic. I don't think there is anything better than the right sized chart to go over before entering a difficult area. Then I use the electronic chart for reference of where I might be along with my visual DR while at the helm.
Not sure if I said it clearly.
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Old 21-08-2012, 14:30   #561
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I wondered why this thread kept popping up.

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Old 21-08-2012, 14:42   #562
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye View Post
Just curious of how many here have crossed the Pacific or the Atlantic without paper charts of destinations you had planned on visiting? On the last crossing of Pacific I do not recall any cruiser who did not have paper charts along with computer charts or chart plotter charts.

I know there were many younger cruisers who could not afford paper but they always had copies made from other cruisers charts. Usually not very good copies but at least it gave them the chance to study destinations and entrances into harbors without the problems of trying to study electronic charts zoomed in to see all markers and all problems that may lay ahead.

For me it is too hard to get a good picture of a difficult entrance that I have never visited before if I have to zoom in and out to see eveything that is on the electronic chart ahead of me. I just can't get a good visual in my mind using electronic. I don't think there is anything better than the right sized chart to go over before entering a difficult area. Then I use the electronic chart for reference of where I might be along with my visual DR while at the helm.
Not sure if I said it clearly.
A large paper chart certainly has the advantage of giving a lot of information at a glance. On the other hand the ability to zoom on an electronic chart alows details to be resolved that cannot be seen on a paper chart without pulling out another chart and redrawing your course and position.

It's rare to see long distance cruising boat without any paper charts, but it's common for a boat to have paper charts that would be classified as inadequate and quite common to see a crusing boat with no relevent paper charts l if they are visiting a new area.

Still you have to have at least one paper chart of the area in the lovely pilot house of that Boreal. It just would not look right otherwise
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Old 21-08-2012, 14:57   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevewrye
Just curious of how many here have crossed the Pacific or the Atlantic without paper charts of destinations you had planned on visiting? On the last crossing of Pacific I do not recall any cruiser who did not have paper charts along with computer charts or chart plotter charts.
Maybe the ones w.o. paper charts weren't advertising the fact, for fear of being called "unseamanlike" or "foolish" by the, err, "seasoned" sailors. .

The previous owners of my boat circumnavigated w.o. a single paper chart.
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:12   #564
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

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Originally Posted by Jane.Joy View Post
Maybe the ones w.o. paper charts weren't advertising the fact, for fear of being called "unseamanlike" or "foolish" by the, err, "seasoned" sailors. .

The previous owners of my boat circumnavigated w.o. a single paper chart.
So what?

Slocum navigated with a wind up alarm clock, without the minute hand at that!

The mere title of this thread is OFFENSIVE to anyone with real experience and knowledge of the art and practice of seafaring.

We're growing legions of new sailors with overdeveloped thumbs and underdeveloped cerebral cortexes.

The fact that someone -- anyone -- has pulled off an ocean voyage or a circumnavigation without paper charts is basically immaterial.

IMHO (50+ years of "seafaring" in many parts of the world, 40+ years as a licensed master). And, I'm not at all computer phobic. Quite the opposite, having been a mainframe programmer and run an IT company for 14 years. Been involved in planning, installing, troubleshooting power systems and navigation/communication systems aboard yachts for many years. So, I'm definitely not a techno-phobe.

If you leave the dock without a paper chart of the area aboard, you're just plain foolish, or don't really understand the arena you're now playing in.

Bill
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:36   #565
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

[QUOTE=noelex 77;1018326]A large paper chart certainly has the advantage of giving a lot of information at a glance. On the other hand the ability to zoom on an electronic chart alows details to be resolved that cannot be seen on a paper chart without pulling out another chart and redrawing your course and position...

+1
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:37   #566
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
A large paper chart certainly has the advantage of giving a lot of information at a glance. On the other hand the ability to zoom on an electronic chart alows details to be resolved that cannot be seen on a paper chart without pulling out another chart and redrawing your course and position.

It's rare to see long distance cruising boat without any paper charts, but it's common for a boat to have paper charts that would be classified as inadequate and quite common to see a crusing boat with no relevent paper charts l if they are visiting a new area.
Paper charts as a backup - not a problem

BUT to say that electronic and paper charts have the same information on them is not necessarly true. The advantage of the electronic charts is that superimposing radar and AIS data in real time provides a set of data that is not avaliable at a glance with paper charts.

This adds to the safe handling of vessels in busy seaways, remote location, operating in adverse weather conditions especialy when the boat is being single handed at the time.
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:53   #567
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Raster charts ARE exactly like paper charts. They're EXACT photographic copies. Pixel by pixel. And, they often contain MORE information than do...

Vector charts, which are used by all chart plotters. These are often digitized manually and, if not NOAA charts, are of uncertain reliability.

So, let's say we take an accurate electronic chart, like a raster chart, and overlay it with radar data which may or may not match (how do you do the "rubbersheeting" to be sure the overlays are exact?), then we overlay that with AIS data which may, at best, show 10-20% of the things which could hit us or we could run into (since fishing boats, yachts, buoys, floating containers, weather buoys, oil platforms, rowboats and small sailing boats, floating logs and other debris, etc. don't have AIS signals, nor do large vessels which have turned their AIS off) and....what do we have?

A bloody mess. Incomplete and sometimes erroneous and often unregistered data in a jumble on the screen.

But....very seductive. Great, let's use the VHF to call the M/V Seaward heading to London from Amsterdam, making 22 knots on a course of........
blah, blah, blah. Yeah, let's do that while we completely ignore the trawler which doesn't have AIS and which RUNS US DOWN!

Sorry, folks. I'm afraid that never the "overdeveloped thumbs community" and the "ancient mariners community" shall ever agree :-)

We don't NEED AIS, except perhaps for amusement.

We DO need radar. In reduced visibiltiy, it's your best friend. And, it's synoptic, i.e., if properly adjusted and read it shows nearly EVERYTHING which is a threat to you. I can pick up crab pots and lobster pots on my radar, along with kayakers, buoys, rowboats, etc.

AIS is not Radar. Not by a long shot. Amaazing how few newbies get that, preferring to go with AIS because "it's less expensive".

Threatened with an acute mortal disease, would you choose a medicine which is only 20% effective because it's "cheaper" than one which is very nearly 100% effective?

Bill
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:56   #568
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
So what?

Slocum navigated with a wind up alarm clock, without the minute hand at that!

The mere title of this thread is OFFENSIVE to anyone with real experience and knowledge of the art and practice of seafaring.

We're growing legions of new sailors with overdeveloped thumbs and underdeveloped cerebral cortexes.

The fact that someone -- anyone -- has pulled off an ocean voyage or a circumnavigation without paper charts is basically immaterial.

IMHO (50+ years of "seafaring" in many parts of the world, 40+ years as a licensed master). And, I'm not at all computer phobic. Quite the opposite, having been a mainframe programmer and run an IT company for 14 years. Been involved in planning, installing, troubleshooting power systems and navigation/communication systems aboard yachts for many years. So, I'm definitely not a techno-phobe.

If you leave the dock without a paper chart of the area aboard, you're just plain foolish, or don't really understand the arena you're now playing in.

Bill
Bill I think you have to recognise there are experienced (and inteligent ) sailors on both sides of the argument.
Your opinion is clear but to advance the topic after over 500 posts you really need to address the practical problems of why you feel it's not safe to go without paper charts.

Stay nice there is no need to denigrate anyone who does not share your view. Share your experience and tell us why it's a bad idea.
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Old 21-08-2012, 15:59   #569
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Raster charts ARE exactly like paper charts. They're EXACT photographic copies. Pixel by pixel. And, they often contain MORE information than do...

Vector charts, which are used by all chart plotters. These are often digitized manually and, if not NOAA charts, are of uncertain reliability.

So, let's say we take an accurate electronic chart, like a raster chart, and overlay it with radar data which may or may not match (how do you do the "rubbersheeting" to be sure the overlays are exact?), then we overlay that with AIS data which may, at best, show 10-20% of the things which could hit us or we could run into (since fishing boats, yachts, buoys, floating containers, weather buoys, oil platforms, rowboats and small sailing boats, floating logs and other debris, etc. don't have AIS signals, nor do large vessels which have turned their AIS off) and....what do we have?

A bloody mess. Incomplete and sometimes erroneous and often unregistered data in a jumble on the screen.

But....very seductive. Great, let's use the VHF to call the M/V Seaward heading to London from Amsterdam, making 22 knots on a course of........
blah, blah, blah. Yeah, let's do that while we completely ignore the trawler which doesn't have AIS and which RUNS US DOWN!

Sorry, folks. I'm afraid that never the "overdeveloped thumbs community" and the "ancient mariners community" shall ever agree :-)

Bill
I am not trying to put words into your mouth, but are you saying you feel AIS has a negative impact on vessel safety?
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Old 21-08-2012, 16:01   #570
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Re: Paper Charts Now Unnecessary

I'm guessing that it is only proper to have the proper chart on the nav station. I'm guessing that the proper chart gives you an idea of what your looking for. Notice I said idea. Not only will I have the proper chart on the chart table in the dog house I'll have a chart plotter there and one at the helm, they will talk.

Having most electronics going to one screen I'm not so sure about, I have been against in past voyages. But it is hard to do other wise now, so new boat will interface radar and AIS on chart plotter. I guess it will be a love hate relationship. No auto helm to chart plotter and that I know.

Thank you bttrayfors for your words of wisdom. I have always had great respect for your seamanship and contributions to the sailing community over the years.
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