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Old 20-07-2012, 21:51   #376
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
No, it really doesn't. You can have a very low scale, detailed chart, and still get more information by zooming in on a chart plotter. The advantage of paper is that in addition to important details, it lets you see the "big picture." The higher the scale, the bigger the picture.

But when it comes dotn to EXACTLY where your boat is in relation to that wreck just under the surface, only an idiot would have a chart plotter but not refer to it. Sometimes small differences can make a huge difference in the safety of your boat.

I think I'd like to see a race not of orienteering on the water, but paper only vs. chart only, and see who could sail with more precision. The notion that chart plotters have nothing to bring to the table is just absurd.

Seems I will just have to accept your greater experience,
understanding and undoubtedly number of posts on this matter.



Orienteering, racing ?????? Who suggested only using paper ?? Not this idiot.

A prudent navigator will always use all tools at their disposal and mostly that will include paper. Racers/orienteers who knows?? Quite a few have missed the mark recently.

Cheers
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Old 20-07-2012, 22:24   #377
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

There are a lot of things that even though they are the best option that technology can offer that are not on my boat. Quite simply because I can not afford them...so I happily make to do with options that have and still do work perfectly well.
My boat was designed 75 years ago and there isn't room(physically or esthetically) for clusters of displays as seen n a lot of new boats.
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Old 20-07-2012, 22:26   #378
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Originally Posted by Rakuflames

"Is seems most of you paperless proponents never weigh anchor without two diesel mains and/or a generator running. "

Who has said that?

ONLY YOU.

Why the need to insult someone? Do you think he or she will listen to what you have to say and take your expertise more seriously if you do so?
Hah!

There is a close correlation between those who suggest paper is unnecessary, and those who don't sail. Truth is, electronic systems are more likely to survive on a motor boat than a sailboat, and they're a little easier to use when you can always sail the rhumb line.

I use both. I electronics are my mistress, but I always come home to my paper.
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Old 21-07-2012, 00:28   #379
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Good luck....
There is a litle bit more to it than that,
I did have paper charts and the electronic Gizmo's, Which I checked against each other frequently,

If I wasnt held up by customs. I would have sailed out of Fiji in broad daylight, and could see every thing plainly with my eyes,
But as it was, I didnt lift my anchor till 5-30 PM. So I sailed out in the dark,
After you clear customs, You are not permitted to land again, This is my understanding of the laws, And what is written on the papers I had,

Coming into Lautoka, (For Customs) If I hadnt been sitting watching the GPS and the depth sounder, I would have run aground on a man made reef that wasnt on the paper charts or the GPS,

Constant 34 feet to 3 feet in less than a boat lenght, instant reverse, The tide was in when I surveyed the beach the week before in a car to see where I could park the boat near the beach, The reef was submerged, half a mile or so off the beach, Just not visible,

As for the GPS going round in circles, That was due to the north bound ocean current I was in, The strong north wind, carrying and blowing me sideways to the north,
I was doing approx 8 knots forwards, 6 knots sideways,

The GPS read that I was doing 1.5 knots forwards but was pointing to the north where I was going sideways and also to the west where I was heading, hence it was going around in circles, It couldnt cope with both directions at once,
My inexperience with the GPS, and what it actually does in different sea conditions confused me some what,,

But I still had my compass and I steered with that, Its not connected to any thing, Like the GPS is, The GPS is connected to every thing else on board,

The paper charts said I was in clear water, The GPS said I was in clear water,

The depth sounder is the one tool I do rely on, and watch constantly, combined with the compass, I get where I am going,

In the 45 years I have been wandering around in Australia's Impenetrable forests and mountains and deserts, I have never been lost yet, And with out compass or paper charts or any other means of technology,
In the day I have the sun, in the night I have the stars,
On the boat, I had the east star over the back of my right hand shoulder, Which would put me in a radius of 200 miles north or south of Bundaberg over the distance I was travelling with out any nav aids,

But my boat has a compass, WOW, Thats even better than the stars or the sun to get me where I want to go,,

Inexperience in some things, doesnt mean your stupid, or foolhardy, And I learn very quickly,
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Old 21-07-2012, 01:15   #380
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

It is a bit OT, but to clarify a couple of points from your post.

1. The GPS will always display your track relative to the ground. It is not confused by current. The GPS only sees your movement over the earths surface whether or not that movement is due to boat speed, current, leeway or something else does not matter to the GPS. It will display your overall track. It will only go around in circles when that's what you doing!

2. When using the compass make sure you understand how to resolve vectors for boat speed and current. In the sort of conditions you describe with a six knot current, beam on, the compass course you need to steer to maintain your desired track is a long way from the same track with no current. As the current strength is rarly constant, or known accurately you need to keep a constant update on your position.

I am sure you understand these navigational principals, but a lot of navigators that have extensive experience on land, bush walking etc, do get confused using the compass and GPS on a boat, particularly with current. On land you don't go sideways like a boat will. Stay safe.
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Old 21-07-2012, 02:14   #381
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It is a bit OT, but to clarify a couple of points from your post.

1. The GPS will always display your track relative to the ground. It is not confused by current. The GPS only sees your movement over the earths surface whether or not that movement is due to boat speed, current, leeway or something else does not matter to the GPS. It will display your overall track. It will only go around in circles when that's what you doing!

Thats what I didnt understand at the time, But I have it figured out now, Going sideways as well as forward is a thing I was not familiar with,

2. When using the compass make sure you understand how to resolve vectors for boat speed and current. In the sort of conditions you describe with a six knot current, beam on, the compass course you need to steer to maintain your desired track is a long way from the same track with no current. As the current strength is rarly constant, or known accurately you need to keep a constant update on your position.

I am sure you understand these navigational principals, but a lot of navigators that have extensive experience on land, bush walking etc, do get confused using the compass and GPS on a boat, particularly with current. On land you don't go sideways like a boat will. Stay safe.
Thanks for your info, You say it better than I do,
Its very hard to convey in a few simple words what is happening, In a very complex situation,
Plus I dont have the right words to say it with,
If I was talking you face to face, you could ask questions, and you would find out the nitty gritty of what I am saying, Then understand where I am coming from,
Makes it a lot easier than trying to get a point across on the internet.

I was aware of ocean currents, But coastal currents on a motor boat were some thing that just didnt matter, Big outboard motors over come any currents,

Thanks,
Brian,
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Old 22-07-2012, 14:08   #382
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

My opinion is that paper charts won't ever be totally obsolete....

They don't require batteries or power to use. You can read them by candlelight even, if necessary, or a kerosene or oil lamp. There are no electronics to corrode, and they don't break if they get dropped on the deck.......so.....

They are great to have as backup, even if you have the most advanced electronic navigation suite in the universe. Have a couple sextants, too, and the necessary tables, and know how to calculate position, while you're at it.
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Old 22-07-2012, 14:19   #383
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

The question that should be asked "Are techno gizmos really necessary".... or more specifically are you as a sailor able to navigate effectively with out them.
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Old 22-07-2012, 14:47   #384
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
The question that should be asked "Are techno gizmos really necessary".... or more specifically are you as a sailor able to navigate effectively with out them.
"Are these bits of paper really necessary".... or more specifically are you as a sailor able to navigate effectively with out them.

Sorry I could not resist

Without local knowledge of the area, maps are necessary, or at least a big help to a navigator. The maps can be electronic or paper.
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Old 22-07-2012, 15:05   #385
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Orienteering, racing ?????? Who suggested only using paper ?? Not this idiot.
I was the idiot that suggested orienteering, but did not limit the method; though a sketch map was one permutation. The idea being to improve nav skills and boat handling, regardless of tools, regardless of boat speed & agility, or local knowledge. There is always something to learn....
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Old 22-07-2012, 15:42   #386
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

Orienteering?....you mean looking at points on land, etc...then finding your position in relation to where they are on a chart (with practice you can become relatively accurate at a glance)...with sighting compass an a ruler you can be spot on.
Sort of a nice feeling to know whee you are just by looking around instead of looking at the plotter...this argument better fits the "Is achart plotter nessesary or a luxury" thread
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Old 22-07-2012, 15:57   #387
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Slight drift but related. Being a more, err, frugal sailor, cm93 and opencpn form the electronic side of things.
So do the higher end charting system have tidal stream data included? I can get tidal heights for pretty much anywhere on opencpn which makes passage planning so easy compared with paper, but still need to hunt down some tidal diamonds on a paper chart for the velocities.

My chart plotter also gives me predicted currents in interesting places like inlets that can be extremely useful.

My paper chart can't do that.
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Old 22-07-2012, 16:01   #388
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Seems I will just have to accept your greater experience,
understanding and undoubtedly number of posts on this matter.



Orienteering, racing ?????? Who suggested only using paper ?? Not this idiot.

A prudent navigator will always use all tools at their disposal and mostly that will include paper. Racers/orienteers who knows?? Quite a few have missed the mark recently.

Cheers

Cheers my hind (oh nevermind). There was nothing "cheerful" about that, and anyone who has the ROYAL NERVE to disagree with you on some point must be sarcastically put down?

You would live in a happier place if you didn't do that.

At first I thought I agreed with this sentence:

"A prudent navigator will always use all tools at their disposal and mostly that will include paper"

But the word "mostly" confuses the whole thing. Only you know what you actually meant to say.

However, a prudent sailor will always use all tool at his/her disposal. Why you think that these mythical sailors (apparently "most" of them) would only have paper charts available to them is beyond me.

Clearly I don't have to have more experience than you to know that my chart plotter will give me not only tidal information but information regarding currents.
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Old 22-07-2012, 16:02   #389
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
There are a lot of things that even though they are the best option that technology can offer that are not on my boat. Quite simply because I can not afford them...so I happily make to do with options that have and still do work perfectly well.
My boat was designed 75 years ago and there isn't room(physically or esthetically) for clusters of displays as seen n a lot of new boats.

Which is why I have one very small display. I'm not ready for my sailboat cockpit to look like the cockpit of a 747.
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Old 22-07-2012, 16:05   #390
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Re: Paper charts now unnessary

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The question that should be asked "Are techno gizmos really necessary".... or more specifically are you as a sailor able to navigate effectively with out them.

That would be nothing but a bragging contest. I will predict right now that the people who have been sailing 30 years will be better at it than the people who have been sailing 2. Although I think I know a couple of people who have been sailing for decades who would really struggle without electronics.

if the OP wanted to whack a hornet's nest with a stick, he did a good job, but I think he is the only person who agreed with the title of the thread.
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