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Sailor g · 22-05-2012, 07:01

I have a chart plotter & GPS. Also have paper charts, 2 back up GPS's (not including 2 phones as ours don't work over Mexican boarder or a distance off shore) and guide books with lat/lon and excellent photos/descriptions to keep track of where you are for off coast. Also have charts on our computer. I agree binoculars are essential tools. Biggest tool though is Human reasoning and knowing how to use these tools and knowing their limitations- it's not a set it and forget it deal. They can do great things and are much more accurate today.

The point of redundancy is to minimize mistakes by comparing data. We use paper charts the first time we go to a place and they are accessible as we travel. We plot our course before we leave using all these sources to be sure of any problems. As we travel we check where we are (though we don't plot on the paper chart). It passes the time and we always know where we are. Near and even off shore (50+ miles out) I keep track of us and other ships with AIS and GPS so I still know where I am lat/lon wise.

It works for us and I'm comfortable with what we use. Using new technology is wonderful but keeping the old standbys makes the best of both worlds.

senormechanico · 22-05-2012, 08:50

Recently heard somewhere on the net:

"People who are absolutely sure of their opinion really piss me off!"

"Are you sure about that?"

"Yes! Absolutely!!"

-------------------

Rakuflames · 22-05-2012, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidmon

First off...

I wasn't insulting anyone. Making general statements with the "you" pronoun.

You took it that way because you wanted to (I guess). When in reality we agree: Know and use all your tools.

Anyway, thats your problem.

Second.

More accidents like that which happened to the Aegean will befall others if the same lack of regard that is prevalent throughout the community to the needs of learning the navigation fundamentals and training the specifics of electronic nav systems -in particular, how to watch for automation bias- in pleasure boats is not addressed.

You can plan on it.

No, Sidmon. I haven't taken anything personally. This isn't personal to me. I'm going sailing this weekend into new waters (to me), and started out with a large paper chart, then moved on to the smaller "book" style charts. I haven't even turned the chartplotter on yet in planning this trip. I have nothing to take personally here.

I'm just noting that just because an incident, or incidents, are reported in the media, doesn't mean those incidents are either typical or common in any way. News is usually news precisely because it's unusual. The assumption that people who use electronic navigational aids are in some way lazy or inadequate is a wholly unproven assumption here.

I even gave an example I personally heard on my marine radio of someone who couldn't find an easily found marine point without his chart plotter and asked the coast guard to come guide him to it, but that story is remarkable because it's so unusual, not because it happens all the time.

Don't know how I can be more clear about it, but please stop putting words in my mouth and attitudes in my head.

Rakuflames · 22-05-2012, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

so far the poll shows a different picture than what one would get from the discussion on a related current thread

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I have and use wasn't one of the options, so I didn't vote.

SimonV · 22-05-2012, 16:03

I would like to have and learn how to use a sextant, but for the same money I can have a stand alone gps/chartplotter wrapped in tinfoil and kept in a metal box. it is the 21st century after all, I mean do we still have to learn morse code.

**Pblais** · 22-05-2012, 17:01

Quote:

I would like to have and learn how to use a sextant, but for the same money I can have a stand alone gps/chartplotter wrapped in tinfoil and kept in a metal box. it is the 21st century after all, I mean do we still have to learn Morse code.

Not to learn fundamental navigation you don't need a sextant or Morse code. You might some day want to learn it. Navigation is independent of how you navigate. It includes understanding charts be they electronic or paper. It includes how a magnetic compass and a GPS work and when and why they disagree. It's the difference between magnetic north and true north and the magnetic variation on the planet and the deviation caused by your boat. It includes having the good sense to look and see what can be seen and understand what it means. It includes tides and currents and how they effect the depth, course over ground, and heading. These are age old properties that are the true image of the waters and the land underneath a ship at sea. They don't have anything to do with the technology you use. They are very real properties that can not be over looked or ignored.

All of this is not a technology well understood until the early 20th century. GPS is obviously late 20th century but not much else its really new. The whole topic of piloting is perhaps more a topic of discussion because piloting is about near coastal waters where most all recreational boating happens and where navigation gets down to feet not miles. Ironically, it contains most all the details of navigation that come to the forefront where "stuff" happens.

Within all of this there are limits of understanding that all of us have (or don't have). The ability to navigate with the limits of your ability makes it possible to learn and from that point of view it is quite probable you can expand into what you don't understand but can learn. A solid base means you can become better. The ability to read between the lines of what you are shown and what you can learn will make all a better navigator.

Navigation in safety is what it comes down to and being more safe and getting there is a goal we should all agree on. Deciding who is better at it is not a topic we need to get into as long as some people here want to learn more.

Personally, I think we could learn more from topics about "how to" rather than expound at length about what other people didn't know or did wrong yet saying nothing about how to become better.

CF is about sharing knowledge - number 1! We also share a lot of BS and humor but it's not the business end of what we are about.

**noelex 77** · 22-05-2012, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimonV

I would like to have and learn how to use a sextant, but for the same money I can have a stand alone gps/chartplotter wrapped in tinfoil and kept in a metal box. it is the 21st century after all, I mean do we still have to learn morse code.

Learning to use a sextant is wonderful, particularly using a well made instrument. There is something magical about finding your correct position on the earth surface using and optical instrument and some math.
Unfortunatly I think the time has passed when it is still necessary, or even useful.

Rakuflames · 22-05-2012, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pblais

Not to learn fundamental navigation you don't need a sextant or Morse code. You might some day want to learn it. Navigation is independent of how you navigate. It includes understanding charts be they electronic or paper. It includes how a magnetic compass and a GPS work and when and why they disagree. It's the difference between magnetic north and true north and the magnetic variation on the planet and the deviation caused by your boat. It includes having the good sense to look and see what can be seen and understand what it means. It includes tides and currents and how they effect the depth, course over ground, and heading. These are age old properties that are the true image of the waters and the land underneath a ship at sea. They don't have anything to do with the technology you use. They are very real properties that can not be over looked or ignored.

All of this is not a technology well understood until the early 20th century. GPS is obviously late 20th century but not much else its really new. The whole topic of piloting is perhaps more a topic of discussion because piloting is about near coastal waters where most all recreational boating happens and where navigation gets down to feet not miles. Ironically, it contains most all the details of navigation that come to the forefront where "stuff" happens.

Within all of this there are limits of understanding that all of us have (or don't have). The ability to navigate with the limits of your ability makes it possible to learn and from that point of view it is quite probable you can expand into what you don't understand but can learn. A solid base means you can become better. The ability to read between the lines of what you are shown and what you can learn will make all a better navigator.

Navigation in safety is what it comes down to and being more safe and getting there is a goal we should all agree on. Deciding who is better at it is not a topic we need to get into as long as some people here want to learn more.

Personally, I think we could learn more from topics about "how to" rather than expound at length about what other people didn't know or did wrong yet saying nothing about how to become better.

CF is about sharing knowledge - number 1! We also share a lot of BS and humor but it's not the business end of what we are about.

For anyone who is just starting out, The Coast Guard Auxiliary teaches a great series of courses on reading charts, coastal navigation, using a chart plotter, etc. It's an inexpensive and effective way to get started.

**Pblais** · 22-05-2012, 17:52

Quote:

The Coast Guard Auxiliary teaches a great series of courses on reading charts, coastal navigation, using a chart plotter, etc. It's an inexpensive and effective way to get started.

Hands down the best value out there. You basically pay for materials. Nobody really teaches a course any more - it is all home study. These are class room settings with homework! Most of the instructors are retired navigators that really want to teach. The basic course is not hard to find but the second course is really a jewel.

Rakuflames · 22-05-2012, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pblais

Hands down the best value out there. You basically pay for materials. Nobody really teaches a course any more - it is all home study. These are class room settings with homework! Most of the instructors are retired navigators that really want to teach. The basic course is not hard to find but the second course is really a jewel.

They've had a bunch of other good classes here as well, for example one just on anchoring and another on hurricane preparedness.

IslandHopper · 22-05-2012, 18:38

........"we got everything"......

+ redundancy.........

sabray · 22-05-2012, 18:54

Uscg. That's funny I was a kid in dc and did the course at 14. Road a bike down to a dump neighborhood for the course. Looking back I'm amazed that no one came up and was like kid what are you doing here. I did my time and passed. Don't think I would put much in a uscg course. For all the good stuff uscg does the community stuff is a joke. Ever watch the aux practice it' is not really a good example of seamanship. Find a old salt and beg yourself aboard.little value unless you can't read the colregs.

Sailor g · 22-05-2012, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimonV

I would like to have and learn how to use a sextant, but for the same money I can have a stand alone gps/chartplotter wrapped in tinfoil and kept in a metal box. it is the 21st century after all, I mean do we still have to learn morse code.

-. ---

(No in Morse Code) 