windlass/anchor/chain dimension 40ft yacht

[Airjordi]

I wonder if some of you could pass on their opinions/experiences with this:

I want to go for a new French aluminium yacht like the Ovni 395. It is 40ft and displaces around 22000lbs empty.

The yard writes that it comes with a 1000W horizontal windlass for size 10 chain. Chain is not included.

I assume that this is a good size windlass for that boat but from my previous experience I know that nothing is more valuable than anchor chain lengths and weight and a really heavy anchor.

I will spend a lot of time alone on the boat and I'd like to be capable of anchoring in depths of up to 50ft and still being able to leave the boat unattended without getting too nervous. So, I might want to go for whatever equipment fits on the boat without adversely affecting the boats behaviour in bad weather.

The anchor locker of the Ovni looks spacious, so I assume there would be room for up to 300ft of size 10 chain. However, what does that amount of chain weigh and how does it affect the boats behaviour in bad weather during ocean passages?

Another question would be if an even bigger size windlass with bigger chain (perhaps shorter) should be a consideration? The Ovni draws only 2ft so
it could be anchored with little chain very often. Then a thicker chain would make sense. But again; Once I get to a deep anchorage I will need 200ft of chain or more.

The last question would be what anchor size would best do the job. I'm thinking of a Delta anchor or similar. What size of anchor can the bowsprit handle and, assuming I'm anchored in a depth of 50ft, am I going to be able to pull up the whole oversized equipment in a 25kt breeze with that 1000W windlass?

I have also thought about the possibility of separating the anchor from the bow and store it in the back for ocean passages or about having some chain extension in the back that I could add when I need it. However, if I think that to the end it's probably a no go. The anchor and/or chain in the back will be too heavy to be moved forward and installed in due time in a windy and rolly anchorage (me alone).

I might be able to save some weight in the front of the boat to compensate for heavier anchoring equipment. I believe there is a water tank in the forward section of the Ovni that could be left dry most of the time because I'm planning to have a water maker that could keep the other tank full.

I'd be glad to hear what kind of equipment some of you would put on this boat.

Thank you for your ideas!

[double u]

1. 10mm chain weighs 2,3kg/m - 80m & a good sized anchor (say 30kg) will definitely affect the boat's motion in waves negatively.
2. there are many places where your shallow draft will not help you at all: the reef is a few cm under water, & the lagoon is 15m (or often much deeper) - so shortening the chain to lighten the load on the bow is imho not a good option. neither is going for a "mixed mooring": 30m chain, then lots of rope. possible but many disadvantages.
what I am going to go for next time is a higher strength chain ( 8mm for a 40footer), 80m of it.
for the latest insights regarding anchortypes must-see:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-155412.html
&
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-126073.html

[groundtackle]

Airjordi, I have envy regarding your dream vessel...
Firstly I would talk to this guy - Colin Speedie. He is approachable and does new build vessel Yacht Consulting.
Wave Action – Wave Action is a consultancy partnership with a diverse range of experiences, skills and passion for wilderness and the natural world
We are just about about to send Colin his new Excel for his OVNI 435 to play with, excited to get his feedback and observations. Perhaps I've jumped the gun until Colin has a chance to experiment (sorry Colin) but we are fully prepared to gamble with his findings.

Here are my thoughts for the OVNI 395;
I would be confident to spec the EXCEL #5 22kg/47lb Galvanized.
On our sizing charts you will see the #5 falls into 12-15M/39'-49' and 12-15t.
While this range is large we honestly feel the EXCEL performs and is constructed to meet that criteria range.
I know you folks don't want to hear this again.. sorry. Bigger is not better, better is better. Get these oversized anchors off the bow and the entire related anchor system gets lighter. The vessel will perform better. Additional weight is a vicious cycle.
In the PNW and Alaska the deep water and harsh conditions demand 300' minimum and all chain. I'd need to know a little more about vessel specs to spec the chain but 8mm / 5/16" G70 as solid contender if you feel to be on the cusp of G43. Same with the windlass, many factors that require a little more info to spec, it all must work together perfectly.
All the prices are on our site in the 'Shop Onine' section along with the UPS shipping calculator.
For reference- #5 EXCEL Galvanized - $745. CDN / $600.USD
We have our Vancouver and Seattle boat show discount -10% till end of Feb. Email us for the Coupon code before you shop..
Thanks for considering and reading another of my novels.
Chris

[Airjordi]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Airjordi, I have envy regarding your dream vessel...
Firstly I would talk to this guy - Colin Speedie. He is approachable and does new build vessel Yacht Consulting.
Wave Action – Wave Action is a consultancy partnership with a diverse range of experiences, skills and passion for wilderness and the natural world
We are just about about to send Colin his new Excel for his OVNI 435 to play with, excited to get his feedback and observations. Perhaps I've jumped the gun until Colin has a chance to experiment (sorry Colin) but we are fully prepared to gamble with his findings.

Here are my thoughts for the OVNI 395;
I would be confident to spec the EXCEL #5 22kg/47lb Galvanized.
On our sizing charts you will see the #5 falls into 12-15M/39'-49' and 12-15t.
While this range is large we honestly feel the EXCEL performs and is constructed to meet that criteria range.
I know you folks don't want to hear this again.. sorry. Bigger is not better, better is better. Get these oversized anchors off the bow and the entire related anchor system gets lighter. The vessel will perform better. Additional weight is a vicious cycle.
In the PNW and Alaska the deep water and harsh conditions demand 300' minimum and all chain. I'd need to know a little more about vessel specs to spec the chain but 8mm / 5/16" G70 as solid contender if you feel to be on the cusp of G43. Same with the windlass, many factors that require a little more info to spec, it all must work together perfectly.
All the prices are on our site in the 'Shop Onine' section along with the UPS shipping calculator.
For reference- #5 EXCEL Galvanized - $745. CDN / $600.USD
We have our Vancouver and Seattle boat show discount -10% till end of Feb. Email us for the Coupon code before you shop..
Thanks for considering and reading another of my novels.
Chris

So one of your 30kg anchors comes for CAD 967 https://www.groundtackle.com/online-...chor-p67306691 while a 35kg Delta is USD 318 https://www.defender.com/product.jsp...115&id=3298720, correct? Does this Australian anchor do all the cooking or am I missing something?

[groundtackle]

Hi Airjordi,
Well we’re still working on the cooking thing but in the mean time you might check out Steve Goodwin’s anchor videos. He has over 70 of them on this forum. Here’s a shortcut to a couple pertinent to your comment.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDV6KzXh5GI

Check around the 9min mark on the delta video above. Watch the whole thing. It’s facinating and he starts with a great comparison of the delta and our Excel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fMnK0EecA

[groundtackle]

Hi Airjordi,
Well we’re still working on the cooking thing but in the mean time you might check out Steve Goodwin’s anchor videos. He has over 70 of them on this forum. Here’s a shortcut to a couple pertinent to your comment.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tDV6KzXh5GI

Check around the 9min mark on the delta video above. Watch the whole thing. It’s facinating and he starts with a great comparison of the delta and our Excel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fMnK0EecA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OSlyfkNp5dY

[Glenn.Brooks]

Best anchor all around I’ve found is a Rocha. Check out their test results and compare to delta and others. They have a sizing chart that should answer your questions about what size to use. Btw, unless you are in Coral. Certainly nothing wrong with chain and three strand nylon rode. It’s ridiculous to stay you need 300’ of chain in Alaskan waters. The only thing you need chain for is to keep the anchor aligned to the bottom and chafe resistance against sharp rocks (coral heads). Three strand stretches and absorbs shocks very well and is light weight, so works very well in deeper water anchorages. Just use chain at least as long as your hull length. Maybe these anchor salesmen that recommend all chain need all chain to make their anchors hold properly. If so, that’s exactly the anchor you don’t need.

Lot of people move chain down into the center of the boat during passage making. Lightens the ends when you need it most.

Glenn

[groundtackle]

Yikes Glenn...I am not sure where to start concerning your post so I won't say anything except go see Steves Videos #63, I'm sure you can find it. All the other comments, I'll let others chime in.
We are honestly attempting to give folks good info, "The Truth" as Elon Musk says. This is from personal experience, I have some and I'm attempting to share. You have a good idea then I'll listen to you too.

Airj, Nick my partner posted those links (twice to make sure you didn't miss them). I don't like throwing mud at other products, it's not a great tactic, and those vids do just that.He just wants to make sure you've seen them and I agree with him too.

I would like to add;
*$967 CDN = $750 USD just to be clear.
* this Excel is not Delta even though it resembles one. You put these anchors side by side then play with them in the water, you will understand the differences. Some are subtle, but holding power and their construction is an eye opener. Many hours of testing and thought has gone into them.
They are expensive to manufacture and are complex. They are built in Australia that has standards like North America and many other countries in the world.
There is a reason those Deltas are on every new boat, cost.
Happy to answer any more questions,
Chris

[Airjordi]

Thank you for your answers so far.

I have to confess that with "Anchorage" I didn't mean Anchorage, Alaska. Sorry for my Swiss accent :-/

I am probably going to spend most time between 30N and 30S and the scenario I'd like to cover with the anchor gear would be the usual squalls in the tropics with gusts up to 40kts and moderate swell. Now, most people I've talked to mentioned that 3 to 5t times the depth for the chain is fine, but rather 5x than 3x if installation is feasible. That would be 75m of chain at 15m. Of course one can argue that this is very conservative but as I said; I should be able to leave the boat unattended without getting too nervous. I want to live on that boat so it shouldn't feel like a prison.

But anyway, my question actually was not about which anchor to choose but if it's ok, responsible or negligent to install 250kg of chain plus an anchor in the bow of a 40fter. I'm not thinking about upwind sailing performance or top speed but about stability and behaviour in heavy weather like surfing down Ocean swell.

Regarding keeping the chain short and instead adding rope: Interesting, I have spent many hours thinking about a practicable solution but I've failed to find one. I know that it is nearly impossible to pull a 30kg anchor with a 10m chain out of 10m of water when it's windy. How would I get the main anchor back on board if the boat end is rope and there's 30kt of wind?

[Airjordi]

Originally Posted by groundtackle

Yikes Glenn...I am not sure where to start concerning your post so I won't say anything except go see Steves Videos #63, I'm sure you can find it. All the other comments, I'll let others chime in.
We are honestly attempting to give folks good info, "The Truth" as Elon Musk says. This is from personal experience, I have some and I'm attempting to share. You have a good idea then I'll listen to you too.

Airj, Nick my partner posted those links (twice to make sure you didn't miss them). I don't like throwing mud at other products, it's not a great tactic, and those vids do just that.He just wants to make sure you've seen them and I agree with him too.

I would like to add;
*$967 CDN = $750 USD just to be clear.
* this Excel is not Delta even though it resembles one. You put these anchors side by side then play with them in the water, you will understand the differences. Some are subtle, but holding power and their construction is an eye opener. Many hours of testing and thought has gone into them.
They are expensive to manufacture and are complex. They are built in Australia that has standards like North America and many other countries in the world.
There is a reason those Deltas are on every new boat, cost.
Happy to answer any more questions,
Chris

Once they cook, I'll buy three of them!

[double u]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

Best anchor all around I’ve found is a Rocha. Check out their test results and compare to delta and others. They have a sizing chart that should answer your questions about what size to use. Btw, unless you are in Coral. Certainly nothing wrong with chain and three strand nylon rode. It’s ridiculous to stay you need 300’ of chain in Alaskan waters. The only thing you need chain for is to keep the anchor aligned to the bottom and chafe resistance against sharp rocks (coral heads). Three strand stretches and absorbs shocks very well and is light weight, so works very well in deeper water anchorages. Just use chain at least as long as your hull length. Maybe these anchor salesmen that recommend all chain need all chain to make their anchors hold properly. If so, that’s exactly the anchor you don’t need.

Lot of people move chain down into the center of the boat during passage making. Lightens the ends when you need it most.

Glenn

there are situations where chain+rope is better, but they are far & between. (1 rtw with chain+rope & 2 rtws with all chain speaking here)
(& btw: TNB is going to have 70-80m 8mm Aqua 7 chain, ~30kg Mantus & Spade plus big Fortress on 15m chain+rope & is going to be ~40'long - the boat that is)

[double u]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140...dout-performer

[noelex 77]

Congratulations on the new yacht, Airjordi . Ovnis are great cruising boats that cry out to be in a remote anchorage rather than tied up in a marina, so they deserve good anchor gear.

With their centreboard design the Ovni range is slightly more sensitive to weight distribution than some cruising boats so optimising the anchoring gear is important. There is an argument that with their shallow draft they can get away with slightly less chain, but in some cruising grounds a shallow draft does little to reduce the anchoring depth. If you want to cover most anchorages, 80-100m of chain is nice to have.

Most of the weight is in the chain rather than the anchor. 100m of 10mm chain weighs about 230kg. The anchor, even if you go for an oversized model, will only weigh a small fraction of this. 100m of 8mm chain only weighs 145 kg. This saving in weight is far more than would be added even by choosing an absurdly large anchor for your vessel. So in practice if you can go up in anchor size and down in chain size, you can have a higher performing anchoring system and still save quite a bit of weight. 8mm G7 has about the same strength as the 10mm that is fitted as standard.

This change is not without significant drawbacks. You will need to go to G7 chain and unfortunately this seems to rust quicker than the G4 alternatives. Unless you can convince Ovni to make the change, you will also need a new gypsy, and these are not cheap.

The best advice is to fit the largest anchor your boat can comfortably handle so this means talking to other owners that have the same boat. People who start cruising often want to use the anchor manufacturer's recommendations. Be careful with some anchor manufacturer's tables. There is incentive for them to recommend small anchors and I think after a while the manufacturers start to believe their own rhetoric about how foolproof their models are. The manufacturer won't be with you when it's blowing 50 knots and there are coral bommies just off your stern . The Rocna and Mantus tables are the most realistic and these are a good starting point, but most cruisers go up one to two sizes if possible.

The very best general purpose anchors in my view are the Mantus, Rocna, steel Spade and the Manson Supreme. Ovni usually supply a Delta anchor. I believe they can be talked into swapping this for a Spade (for a price), which is a much better anchor than the Delta, but most owners keep the Delta as a spare and source a better anchor privately.

[Glenn.Brooks]

Certainly your intended cruising area will greatly influence what type of rode you carry. Most cruisers recommend all chain in the tropical pacific, for example, because of the almost universal presence of coral heads in anchorages. Deep water anchoring in Alaska most sailers prefer a boat length of chain and lots of three strand nylon anchor line. In 25 years commercial fishing and singlehanded sailing in Alaska, I can’t recall ever seeing a sailboat that carried all chain. Some of the big power boats were equipped that way, but usually only those over 40’ LOD.

In answer to your question about carrying 250kg of chain in your boat, yes, you will undoubtedly want to store the bulk of that weight away from the bow. Some people arrange chain stowage in the aft end of the foc’sle, under a bunk, or even down in the bilge behind the main mast. Then move it forward to the bow when arriving at anchorage. I’ve seen some applications where the chain is run on deck, back to the mast, then below decks through a hawse pipe to a more central stowage point.

If your budget allows, certainly install a windlass. It’s the most easy way to go. But dont dispare of pulling chain by hand. Usually one motors up on the anchor and pulls only the weight of the rode in the vertical water column between your bow roller and the bottom. So at any one time you might actually be pulling 35 feet of chain, not the whole shot. It comes up in small lengths, then you tie off and repeat until the anchor pulls loose and you bring it on board. After a few weeks of cruising, your arm strength and shoulders will be equal to the task, possibly even with a 40 footer.

In the old days, Hitchcock and Don street used to talk about tieing off a length of line to the chain and winching up using the main halyard winch. So, many ways to skin the cat, eh?

Fair winds!

Glenn

[Seabeau]

Can you move the chain locker further aft?