Ultra Swivel - opinions?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by colemj

My point about the grooved roller is that it sets and keeps the alignment of the chain as it is being retrieved. So one has a 50/50 chance of the anchor coming up in either orientation, unless the chain jumps in the groove and aligns differently.

Ah. Very useful analysis. With our combo rode, that could mean a 50/50 chance the chain aligns nicely from the git-go. (Or not, as we see.)

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by colemj

My point about the grooved roller is that it sets and keeps the alignment of the chain as it is being retrieved. So one has a 50/50 chance of the anchor coming up in either orientation, unless the chain jumps in the groove and aligns differently.

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Ah. Very useful analysis. With our combo rode, that could mean a 50/50 chance the chain aligns nicely from the git-go. (Or not, as we see.)

Still digesting the implications. I'm now thinking I could maybe mark the chain properly -- at the chain/rope splice -- so with my guidance at that point, it then automatically sets and loads the anchor for a right side up presentation.

Which means maybe I've been trying to solve it at the wrong end of the chain. If so, maybe no swivel required. Or less required...

Hmmm...

-Chris

[CarlF]

My last boat had a grooved roller. A twisted chain could "pop" out of the groove quite easily during raising and be upside down. Once it's in the groove wrong, it's quite hard to get it back the other way by hand - especially when the heavy anchor is out of the water hanging at the roller. Ultra always goes right side up. One less thing to watch.

I've held both the Ultra and Wasi. Very similiar design and "heft". Neither would be a weak link. The weakest part of both appear to be the shackle pins and they are the same diameter, material, and both polished.

The Ultra and Wasi designs are entirely different designs from swivels that had trouble in the PS test or Nolex's pictures. It's like worrying about keel bolt failure on a boat with internal ballast.

Has anyone heard of an Ultra or Wasi failing? (as far as I know, the Ultra free replacement of one size swivel in 2010 was not due to a customer's failure).

Carl

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Still digesting the implications. I'm now thinking I could maybe mark the chain properly -- at the chain/rope splice -- so with my guidance at that point, it then automatically sets and loads the anchor for a right side up presentation.

Which means maybe I've been trying to solve it at the wrong end of the chain. If so, maybe no swivel required. Or less required...

Hmmm...

-Chris

I think you would be chasing unicorns trying to solve the problem this way. All it takes is a single link jumping 90* to screw it all up. This will happen on a grooved roller - just not as much as with an ungrooved one.

Mark

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Panope

I want to find out why some anchors will rotate themselves correctly on the roller and some will not.

Can someone who must use a swivel to retrieve thier anchor please explain exactly what happens if a swivel is not used? I am asking about the issue of the anchor coming up "backwards".

I am not asking about the issue of the chain becoming twisted.

The reason I ask, is because my anchors ALWAYS rotate themselves correctly the instant they touch the bow roller. Never had a swivel.

What have I got that others don't?

Steve

Balance.

The Bruce has good balance. So does the Delta.

Roll bar anchors generally less so (because there's no ballast, and a lot of fluke up high), which is why they have the roll bar.

It was one thing I didn't like about my Rocna, although it was otherwise a very good anchor.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by colemj

I think you would be chasing unicorns trying to solve the problem this way. All it takes is a single link jumping 90* to screw it all up. This will happen on a grooved roller - just not as much as with an ungrooved one.

Yeah, probably... Easy enough to do some simple tests, though, to confirm it won't work all that well. I wouldn't have to remove the current swivel to do any checking...

We'll see if I get around to that; got some (marina) trips and some maintenance coming up starting this week...

-Chris

[NahanniV]

Originally Posted by colemj

I think you would be chasing unicorns trying to solve the problem this way. All it takes is a single link jumping 90* to screw it all up. This will happen on a grooved roller - just not as much as with an ungrooved one.

Mark

If jumping 90deg. will screw it up, then isn't the chance of it coming up correctly 25% ? Not 50/50.

Cheers,
JM.

[colemj]

Each jump in link (90*) results in the anchor being oriented 180* differently. The anchor orientation is determined by the direction of every other link, which changes with a 90* rotation of adjacent links.

Mark

[Dennis.G]

Originally Posted by colemj

Each jump in link (90*) results in the anchor being oriented 180* differently. The anchor orientation is determined by the direction of every other link, which changes with a 90* rotation of adjacent links.

Mark

Your logic escapes me. My anchor certainly has come up from the water sideways as well as frontwards or rearwards. Seems one-in-four chance of proper orientation as opposed to one-in-two chance, assuming some jumping of chain in the bow roller has occurred.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Balance.

The Bruce has good balance. So does the Delta.

Roll bar anchors generally less so (because there's no ballast, and a lot of fluke up high), which is why they have the roll bar.

It was one thing I didn't like about my Rocna, although it was otherwise a very good anchor.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Thanks Dockhead (and Mark). I was unaware that some anchors are balanced such that they will rotate themselves while others will not.

Add the Manson Supreme to the list of anchors that WILL rotate itself upright on the roller - at least if the roller does not have a groove or some other rotate limiting factor that I am not yet aware of like roller width? roller diameter? chain size? distance between roller and windlass? or? or?

Steve

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by colemj

For many of us, the groove in the roller serves a vital purpose - it prevents the chain from twisting as it moves from the roller to the windlass. On our boat, that distance is ~8' and without the groove, the chain pretty quickly becomes twisted and kinked in the locker and doesn't go through the gypsy well.

Of course, that means any twist is pushed down toward the anchor during retrieval - which requires a swivel to accommodate.


Mark

Precisely our problem. We have had an hour-glass rubber roller made for rope while using all chain. The roller to wldcat distance is about feet. With the boat not directly in line with the chain, the chain walks up one side of the rubber taper and then fall over- repeat. This forces a tightly wound chain that will not run in the wildcat. The purpose of the groove is prevent the chain from fouling the windlass. With a very heavy boat and 300 feet of 7/16 chain it is nearly impossible to pull up slack and force the twist over the roller & back down the chain. Also dangerous. This happens even if we stop for a picnic - no swinging. The twist between the roller & windlass is matched opposite hand between the anchor & roller.

As has been discussed, the properly weighted anchor will right itself as the shank is drawn over the roller and the anchor is forced into a cantilever position. Our Rocna, CQR and Bruce all do. The groove in the roller is fitted to the chain. the anchor shank is well wider than the groove so the shank will never lodge in the groove.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Precisely our problem. We have had an hour-glass rubber roller made for rope while using all chain. The roller to wldcat distance is about feet. With the boat not directly in line with the chain, the chain walks up one side of the rubber taper and then fall over- repeat. This forces a tightly wound chain that will not run in the wildcat. The purpose of the groove is prevent the chain from fouling the windlass. With a very heavy boat and 300 feet of 7/16 chain it is nearly impossible to pull up slack and force the twist over the roller & back down the chain. Also dangerous. This happens even if we stop for a picnic - no swinging. The twist between the roller & windlass is matched opposite hand between the anchor & roller.

As has been discussed, the properly weighted anchor will right itself as the shank is drawn over the roller and the anchor is forced into a cantilever position. Our Rocna, CQR and Bruce all do. The groove in the roller is fitted to the chain. the anchor shank is well wider than the groove so the shank will never lodge in the groove.

Thank you Nicholson58 for three more clues in the great mystery (mystery to me anyway) of why roughly half the boats have no problems with twisting rodes/upside down anchors while the other half of the boats have problems.

I use a roller that is made of aluminum, has no groove, is quite wide, has small 45 degree tapers and has a fairly large diameter. Never had a chain "fall-over".

Here is my current list of clues/potential factors:

-Roller material. Metal, plastic, rubber (may affect slipperiness/chain "fall-over").
-Roller taper size/angle (may affect chain "fall-over").
-Anchor Balance (affects ability of anchor to self right).
-Roller groove/no groove (keeps chain from twisting. May prevent anchor from self righting).
-Roller diameter (????????).
-Roller width (may prevent self righting if narrower than anchor shank is high).
-Distance between roller and windlass (long distance may tolerate more twisting?. Short distance may help prevent twisting?).
-Water depth (Deep water allows chain to untwist?)
-Size of chain (Larger chain may be less prone to twisting)?
-Chain Material. Stainless, Galvanized, Rust (slipperiness. ?????????).

This is getting complicated but I am thinking more and more that roller selection has a LOT to do with how the anchor and chain behave and are retrieved.

Steve

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Panope

I use a roller that is made of aluminum, has no groove, is quite wide, has small 45 degree tapers and has a fairly large diameter. Never had a chain "fall-over".

What keeps the rode centered on your roller?

-Chris

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

As has been discussed, the properly weighted anchor will right itself as the shank is drawn over the roller and the anchor is forced into a cantilever position. Our Rocna, CQR and Bruce all do. The groove in the roller is fitted to the chain. the anchor shank is well wider than the groove so the shank will never lodge in the groove.

Well, yes this is true, but as I stated earlier, when our rocna flips over when it's shank is brought over the roller, it flips so violently it can do damage. Mostly due to the specific arrangement of the gear on the boat, of course - ymmv.

Mark

[Panope]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

What keeps the rode centered on your roller?

-Chris

Nothing. Chain will harmlessly rub on the side plates if the rode is aligned excessively to one side or the other.

I did not see it myself, but a friend had a boat with a custom bow roller that, in addition to the normal horizontal roller, had a vertical roller on either side.

Like this but smaller