Ultra Swivel - opinions?

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Rick01541

Instead of using a swivel just let the anchor hang for a moment until it untwists.

Not going to work in many cases... If you have a lot of chain out and it twists the twist does "reside" just after of the anchor. The twist can and often does make it past the gypsy into the chain locker. And to undo that one has to lay out the chain... or drop it in several hundred feet of water and that may untwist it. But you windlass will have to be able to haul in the entire weight of chain and anchor (less displacement).

But of course finding a few hundred feet of water coastal is the first problem (not impossible).

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Do I win the contest for most beneficial contribution?

I'd have to say, go for it! You'll be very pleased with the swivel, our anchor comes up the correct way every time, no more fussing.

I do appreciate hearing your experience with it.

The way our slightly-lengthy anchor works with the pulpit/roller as it stands now, I need to do the last bit of lifting manually. Otherwise, the angle of the chain pull (even with our articulated swivel)-- causes the "nose" of the anchor shank to seize up against the leading underside of the pulpit fairlead -- before the whole shank can lay down to rest position. And then there's re-setting the chain stopper. Which means I have to be up forward, anyway.

Except for this recent "incident" -- when I couldn't easily get enough leverage on the current swivel to make the darned thing actually swivel -- everything has usually worked OK. After freeing that up, it all seems back to normal. Until the next time, anyway. I guess.

(Happens our July/August weather is usually a bit extreme for anchoring out, and that's why we've had a gap in usage. Even though this year has been oddly comfortable, our routine plans for these two months don't include much anchor use.)

I'm thinking I'll continue to monitor the situation. If the current swivel does that again, then a better "righting" product sounds fine with me.

Until then, the Ultra is indeed pricey... and that's mostly what causes my probable wait-and-see approach.


It is very useful to know that I have options, though!

-Chris

[Nicholson58]

Ultra and other swivels are OK for average & Light loads. All of these should be a couple of links away from the anchor. All are SS boat jewelry. Why is that? The fish don't care. We all know better than to couple dis-similar metals. SS is softer than alloy, therefore larger to compensate and more $$ yet. As to the 30 degree ball & socket. I bend way more than 30 degrees passing over the bow roller.

I studied this at length for our 36 ton vessel and researched what the commercial and large boats use. The answer is an Anchor Forerunner. (Washington Chain & others). The one pictured has a higher strength than the shiny stuff. The anchor shackle pin is oval in section so its stronger in the pull direction. It is fitted on my 7/16 G3 chain, galvanized; 180 dollars including all links & shackles. It cannot be broken over the bow roller as it follows the chain exactly as links. This is the smallest version made (1/2"). Note the same hardware on the navy ship.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Ultra and other swivels are OK for average & Light loads. All of these should be a couple of links away from the anchor. All are SS boat jewelry. Why is that? The fish don't care. We all know better than to couple dis-similar metals. SS is softer than alloy, therefore larger to compensate and more $$ yet. As to the 30 degree ball & socket. I bend way more than 30 degrees passing over the bow roller.

I studied this at length for our 36 ton vessel and researched what the commercial and large boats use. The answer is an Anchor Forerunner. (Washington Chain & others). The one pictured has a higher strength than the shiny stuff. The anchor shackle pin is oval in section so its stronger in the pull direction. It is fitted on my 7/16 G3 chain, galvanized; 180 dollars including all links & shackles. It cannot be broken over the bow roller as it follows the chain exactly as links. This is the smallest version made (1/2"). Note the same hardware on the navy ship.

I didn't see any strength data on that product at Washington Chain. I don't yet understand why it is so strong. Metals issue aside (which is often misunderstood), it seems to be held together by that one pin in the center on which it also swivels. A similar sized Ultra would have much more metal in the area bearing the load.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

I studied this at length for our 36 ton vessel and researched what the commercial and large boats use. The answer is an Anchor Forerunner. (Washington Chain & others).

Does it cause the anchor to present correctly on retrieval?

-Chris

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

This is the smallest version made (1/2"). Note

I'll bet this fact alone makes any of its qualities moot for 90% of us.

Mark

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by colemj

I'll bet this fact alone makes any of its qualities moot for 90% of us.

Mark

Response to several questions:

True, note my post regarding large vessels/small vessel. We are about the smallest vessel accommodated without jump connectors. We have 7/16 chain.

The SS ball swivel & others necessarily have to bend around the chain roller. This angle causes most SS swivels and the traditional double yoke to be stressed about the pin/ball shank as the fulcrum. With a 120# anchor, this is an enormous load. The load is not in-line but is a stree-concentrating bending load. If the swivel is a few links remote from the anchor swivel the load is much reduced. Most folks attach the shank directly to the swivel. In this manor, the entire weight of the anchor, (120#) is cantilevered from the ball shank or other swivel pin about 2-1/2 feet out. With the forerunner, the device behaves like a link of chain. The length from the ridiculously large forged pin to the point of application of load is very short so bending loads are not significant.

The strength of the forerunner, forged & galvanized, is stronger than any part of my chain. BTW, the crappy tiny shackle on the left end of mine was not used - upsized. What is really important for any swivel is that it is not attached directly to the shank but is remote a couple of links. This also prevents your swivel from being pried around a rock and snapped.

Again, if you have a normal displacement boat, you have many more options but you do not need an expensive piece of SS jewelry.

On the chain twist, we should all be considering a proper roller made for chain if you run an all chain rode. This will have a groove that makes the chain behave so you don't get twists between the bow roller & the wildcat. The chain will tend to ride up a rubber roller and then roll back to center. You can man-handle the twist if the loads are low but when there is a lot of heavy chain, wind etc. a chain roller will help keep it straight. (photo)

I have no problem with the anchor flipping upright but my wildcat is well behind the bow roller. (photo)

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Not going to work in many cases... If you have a lot of chain out and it twists the twist does "reside" just after of the anchor. The twist can and often does make it past the gypsy into the chain locker. And to undo that one has to lay out the chain...

Is that really possible? I guess it must be for some gypsy designs (those with a short contact arc), while I'm certain it is not possible for others (those with a long contact arc and close fit). I am quite certain my windlass would jam first.

I suspect one size answers will not fit all. However, in 10 years with this boat, I've never had a twist get past the gypsy. On my boat at least, so long as the rotation is correct at installation, between the gypsy and the anchor, the rotation can never change. The most I have ever had to do (rare) is lower the anchor a few feet and re-hoist.

(I had a nice swivel develop a crack).

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I suspect one size answers will not fit all. However, in 10 years with this boat, I've never had a twist get past the gypsy. On my boat at least, so long as the rotation is correct at installation, between the gypsy and the anchor, the rotation can never change. The most I have ever had to do (rare) is lower the anchor a few feet and re-hoist.

I think ours can "twist" (or at least get twisted) because we use a combination rope/chain rode. If the leading links at the rope end enter the gypsy on retrieval "upside down" (so to speak) that seemed to translate all the way down to the anchor.

Hence the swivel.

I could change back to all-chain, but it already usually takes me about 25 minutes to hose our Chesapeake mud out of the links... so 25' of chain is about all I can stand.

-Chris

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Response to several questions:

True, note my post regarding large vessels/small vessel. We are about the smallest vessel accommodated without jump connectors. We have 7/16 chain.

The SS ball swivel & others necessarily have to bend around the chain roller. This angle causes most SS swivels and the traditional double yoke to be stressed about the pin/ball shank as the fulcrum. With a 120# anchor, this is an enormous load. The load is not in-line but is a stree-concentrating bending load. If the swivel is a few links remote from the anchor swivel the load is much reduced. Most folks attach the shank directly to the swivel. In this manor, the entire weight of the anchor, (120#) is cantilevered from the ball shank or other swivel pin about 2-1/2 feet out. With the forerunner, the device behaves like a link of chain. The length from the ridiculously large forged pin to the point of application of load is very short so bending loads are not significant.

The strength of the forerunner, forged & galvanized, is stronger than any part of my chain. BTW, the crappy tiny shackle on the left end of mine was not used - upsized. What is really important for any swivel is that it is not attached directly to the shank but is remote a couple of links. This also prevents your swivel from being pried around a rock and snapped.

Again, if you have a normal displacement boat, you have many more options but you do not need an expensive piece of SS jewelry.

On the chain twist, we should all be considering a proper roller made for chain if you run an all chain rode. This will have a groove that makes the chain behave so you don't get twists between the bow roller & the wildcat. The chain will tend to ride up a rubber roller and then roll back to center. You can man-handle the twist if the loads are low but when there is a lot of heavy chain, wind etc. a chain roller will help keep it straight. (photo)

I have no problem with the anchor flipping upright but my wildcat is well behind the bow roller. (photo)

I would like to know where this information comes from. SS is generally not softer than "alloy" even though its not clear what alloy we are talking about. Stainless is often considered a brittle steel. Plus you say the 1/2 swivel you have is stronger than the 7/16 chain. With just one 1/2 pin vs both sides of a 7/16 chain link, I question that. WHere is the strength data? I also don't think it is stronger than the boat jewelery 1/2" ultra swivel which has a lot more metal handling the load than the thing in your picture.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Response to several questions:

True, note my post regarding large vessels/small vessel. We are about the smallest vessel accommodated without jump connectors. We have 7/16 chain.

The SS ball swivel & others necessarily have to bend around the chain roller. This angle causes most SS swivels and the traditional double yoke to be stressed about the pin/ball shank as the fulcrum. With a 120# anchor, this is an enormous load. The load is not in-line but is a stree-concentrating bending load. If the swivel is a few links remote from the anchor swivel the load is much reduced. Most folks attach the shank directly to the swivel. In this manor, the entire weight of the anchor, (120#) is cantilevered from the ball shank or other swivel pin about 2-1/2 feet out. With the forerunner, the device behaves like a link of chain. The length from the ridiculously large forged pin to the point of application of load is very short so bending loads are not significant.

The strength of the forerunner, forged & galvanized, is stronger than any part of my chain. BTW, the crappy tiny shackle on the left end of mine was not used - upsized. What is really important for any swivel is that it is not attached directly to the shank but is remote a couple of links. This also prevents your swivel from being pried around a rock and snapped.

Again, if you have a normal displacement boat, you have many more options but you do not need an expensive piece of SS jewelry.

On the chain twist, we should all be considering a proper roller made for chain if you run an all chain rode. This will have a groove that makes the chain behave so you don't get twists between the bow roller & the wildcat. The chain will tend to ride up a rubber roller and then roll back to center. You can man-handle the twist if the loads are low but when there is a lot of heavy chain, wind etc. a chain roller will help keep it straight. (photo)

I have no problem with the anchor flipping upright but my wildcat is well behind the bow roller. (photo)

Have you ever seen or tested a 1/2 inch Ultra swivel? The Ultra is massive compared to the contraption in your pictures, plus it rotates the anchor into the proper position. I use one every day, and the anchor doesn't stress the swivel coming up over the roller like you describe when connected directly to the anchor shaft.

We've been using ours for three years, ever since they first came out. I believe the swivel and the anchor have a lifetime warranty, so...... What's the problem?

Another thing, where do people get the idea that the stainless is somehow softer than galvanized chain? Before every season, I need to cut off the last link or two of the chain due to friction wear at the location where it joins the Ultra swivel. Yet, the swivel shows no wear at all. How do you explain that? When stainless is forged or shaped (if I'm using the correct words), it actually becomes harder than the chain.

[Kenomac]

The word I was looking for in my previous post was annealing. Stainless steel is run through an annealing process to increase hardness and strength... after the piece is shaped or machined, it goes through heating and cooling process.

Most people only look up the structural strength of 316 stainless and don't realize the manufacturer has run the product through an annealing process.

[a64pilot]

Stainless is a little unusual as it's spec'd as 1/4 hard, 1/2 hard etc. but hardening is what you meant, annealing is reducing "hardness", steels can be hardened by quenching or work hardening, sometimes when it's work hardened beyond the hardness state required, it's annealed to soften it.
An example of a very hard steel is a file, very hard of course as it's used to wear away other steels, but try to bend it and it snaps like glass
Too hard and put it under stress and it snaps like that file, soften it a little and it bends, deforms, stretches, but stays together, course you lose strength, there is no free lunch, steels can also be case hardened where just the surface is hard, giving good wear resistance.
Silly question, what has the greatest elasticity, steel or rubber?

Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Kenomac]

It was late here, after midnight. I meant "work hardening." Thanks.

Ken

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Before every season, I need to cut off the last link or two of the chain due to friction wear at the location where it joins the Ultra swivel.

In a previous thread, you presented that photo as proof of galvanic corrosion between SS swivel and galvanized chain.

I think you got it correct here - physical wear, and not corrosion.

Interestingly, our WASI swivel, which is very similar to the Ultra, does not cause this wear issue - or at least it takes a couple of years to do so. That could be something as simple as the specific chain/swivel combination, though.

Mark