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Old 19-01-2006, 04:38   #16
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We've used swivels at the front of our chain rodes for many years, the reason being that when veering a long length of chain and bringing up the rode using a windlass, the twist fed by the gypsy onto the chain can be released by the swivel. In reality, this rarely works because typical galvanized swivels don't easily 'swivel' under any kind of load. The Powerball looks very sweet; OTOH I don't know how smooth the action will be after some use in salt water and, as mentioned above, we've learned we can live without the promise of the rode swiveling. I remember watching a Brit bring up 300' of chain to uncoil the collective twist of his chain rode while we were all waiting weather in Falmouth, and he gave up trying to rely on the swivel when doing this...and the rode was under almost no tension.

We're back in the States with the typical 'list' - things here are much less expensive than in Europe, the vendor service usually better, and with English speaking folks & websites to help us select products - and when ordering some HT shackles from a vendor, I elected to ignore replacing the swivels on WHOOSH. IME a properly size swivel (by WLL, not dimension, and formally rated) isn't any more a weak link than the chain, splice or line...but it just doesn't seem to serve a useful purpose. And FWIW - since Gord can't offer us a govt. report <g> - you can read Earl Hinz dismiss the use of swivels in his Anchors & Drogues book.

I agree with Gord tho' I'm sure we both mean no disrespect to those seaman who make their living on commercial boats - what you often see on a work boat (fishing boats, in particular) are gear and techniques which are distinct to the local area and passed down from one generation to the next. When you move to a new region, you find they have different gear or methods. Whether these things should be held up as models depends very much on the individual boat & crew.

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Old 19-01-2006, 06:34   #17
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If I understand right I should remove my stainless steel swivel and use only a chackle for my anchor? I spent some time with the anchor the otherday and noticed that the swivel is bent and that made me think that replacement may be in order.
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Old 19-01-2006, 07:26   #18
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Old 19-01-2006, 16:54   #19
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2 swivel or not 2 swivel

The admiralty suggests inserting a swivel when mooring (using two or more anchors) to avoid the two cables twisting - makes sense. I've also read advice about putting swivels in at both ends of the cable (anchor and clench). I think this is reckoned for those that anchor for extended periods. As you lay your cable out downstream or downwind as the case may be, then swing around as the stream or breeze changes, you might put a twist in the cable without necessarily re-setting the anchor. When you twist chain cable you put a kink into it. If strain comes onto it, the weak point in the cable will be that kink - the chain is not designed to handle the torsional and shearing loads that result from a kink. If your rode is part or wholly rope, then you don't have to worry about it; and if you're all-chain, I stick with advising a swivel only if and when you are anchored for an extended period or expect to swing a lot.

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Old 19-01-2006, 16:59   #20
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The swivel is off. It will be but with my para anchor and likely never used.
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Old 19-01-2006, 22:16   #21
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If you look at the size of swivels on a permanent mooring, they're huge in comparison to the chain, in order to be as strong (in the water and in the mind of the harbormaster) as the chain.
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Old 19-01-2006, 23:05   #22
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Swivels are fantastic and very useful in some situations.

On Auto Rope to Chain rodes using a laid ropes they are good for stopping hockling and the rope then splice unlaying.

On all chain if you have the dreaded 'comes up backward' anchor problem when getting it aboard or a bad case of twisting, from worn rollers or mis-aligned winch.

Considerations: The swivel must be good and tested. The Wasi Powerball (Germany) is great, the Kong (Italy), the CE (NZ) and one or 2 others. Unfortunatly not that many we know of.

Using one of those ones that look like 2 shackles bolted togeather back to back is HIGHLY NOT recommended as they are not tested and generally crap. Pulled a 16mm one last week to the same loads as 12mm chain and at the chains WLL it had bent the pins and at Proof load it was toast. If you ask everyone who has actually had a swivel issue (and you won't find many, only many who 'have heard') the chances are very very high they had one of these. Why? because they are cheap.

Who uses swivels, all superboats I know of, most, if not all, commercial shipping, almost everyone on stud link chains and many others. Can't be that bad if you get a good one

Just remember it's 2006 now and things have moved along, some good - some bad.
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Old 19-01-2006, 23:07   #23
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Quote:
Sonofason once whispered in the wind:
If you look at the size of swivels on a permanent mooring, they're huge in comparison to the chain, in order to be as strong (in the water and in the mind of the harbormaster) as the chain.
Not quite, they are usually a size or 2 bigger purely because they work a lot and wear faster than most of the other components.
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Old 20-01-2006, 04:04   #24
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GMac, you reminded me of the forgotten fact that we do on occasion benefit by a swivel because it allows me to easily rotate the CQR when it arrives at the roller ass-backwards. Perhaps I won't be quite so quick to eliminate one from the rode when we return to the boat!

Jack
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Old 20-01-2006, 04:35   #25
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Quote:
Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:
GMac, you reminded me of the forgotten fact that we do on occasion benefit by a swivel because it allows me to easily rotate the CQR when it arrives at the roller ass-backwards. Perhaps I won't be quite so quick to eliminate one from the rode when we return to the boat!

Jack
That one issue is my biggest motivatior for keeping a swivel in the system. Dangling over the bow trying to spin the 60lb CQR was not fun. With the WASI it's just right as it spins itself.
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Old 20-01-2006, 05:36   #26
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GMac:

"Using one of those ones that look like 2 shackles bolted togeather back to back is HIGHLY NOT recommended as they are not tested and generally crap."

I'm finding ACCO offers just such a swivel (their model #4406-40001) which they rate at 3900#, the same as their H/T chain and shackles. This would probably be my replacement choice; can you lend any comments to this specific product re: your testing or what you hear professionally? It seems to be a good balance of strength, utility and price and I can pick it up easily e.g.
http://defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|33872|34760&id=33905

Many thanks!

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Old 20-01-2006, 12:11   #27
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Quote:
Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:

I'm finding ACCO offers just such a swivel (their model #4406-40001) which they rate at 3900#, the same as their H/T chain and shackles. This would probably be my replacement choice; can you lend any comments to this specific product re: your testing or what you hear professionally? It seems to be a good balance of strength, utility and price and I can pick it up easily e.g.
http://defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|33872|34760&id=33905
[/B]
G'day,
We have not had a lot of experiance with the Acco one. I would expect that they are probably strong enough, ACCO being a very good manufacturer and a US company (lawyer land). We are not fans of galvanised though, they just don't like spinning with a bit of rust.

On the same site they have some from 'Suncor', these look very similar to the ones we regard as suspect. The stainless ones from Airsports Supply are actually made by Kong and OK. The one from Worldwide Enterprises we see a lot and they are usually rusted and looking quite sad (pins flogged out), we don't like them.

Like a lot of things ex-Asia they are OK at low loads but we have found next to none that live up to their published loads. You also have the 'random lemon' factor which is considerably higher from that region. This is when one (or more) item is just completely wrong for some reason and sneeks through the QA process. For the very same reason we don't use Asian made chains, seen way too many 'randomly placed' un-welded links.

Unfortunatly there is many differing swivels out there so my comments are a bit 'general' but hopefully a bit of help to someone.

Like Gordmay (I think) mentioned above, If you don't need a swivel don't put one on, use a good shackle. One less moving item on your boat is not a bad thing.
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Old 20-01-2006, 13:12   #28
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Thanks for your comments, GMac. Not conclusive...but sometimes it's better to know the scoundrels than to have the heros identified.

Actually, I've seen the fork of several Airsports-like swivels pulled apart; I would not have that one the boat. I see the Suncor a fair amount in Europe, tho' I don't know why.

Jack
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Old 20-01-2006, 14:04   #29
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Quote:
Euro Cruiser once whispered in the wind:
GMac, you reminded me of the forgotten fact that we do on occasion benefit by a swivel because it allows me to easily rotate the CQR when it arrives at the roller ass-backwards. Perhaps I won't be quite so quick to eliminate one from the rode when we return to the boat!

Jack
Now that this was brought up, it was another reason for me to installing a swivel in the first place. This swivel, the heaviest of the two, is the one I'm using but I do like the design of the Powerball.

It seems, some like to discount progress. Rick here in Seattle once stated:

"Man was not put on the moon and successully retreived without technology which many sailboat people still condemn as being something that "if it hasn't failed it will" which is a fallacy flying in the face of successful facts. By repeating such defeatist anti-technology drivel such people are merely ensconcing themselves in caves amidst a world of wonderful opportunity. Don't deny others with such defeatism who might otherwise benefit from the bigger picture."

He was referring to steering systems but I think it would apply here as well!!!!
.................................................. ..._/)
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Old 20-01-2006, 16:50   #30
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Swivel or Not?

For those thinking of using stainless swivels, may want to review this.... http://cruisersforum.com/showthread....tainless+chain
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