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JulianGullsway · 19-01-2012, 05:41

Further to my last post I'am now in need of some techy knowedge, I have along keeled heavy displacment yacht, when I bought her she had an Aries Windvane on the stern which hadnt been used for a number of years, she had also had the wheel removed and a tiller installed, she was far to heavy in a blow over 15 kts so we decided to re-instal the wheel with a hydraulic pump with non return valves, to go hard too takes 3 full turns of the wheel. The question is will the Aries Windvane with the drum clutch etc work, sorry about all the waffle just wanted to try and cover all aspects.

Thanks

Julian

atoll · 19-01-2012, 08:33

it should work fine,best to use non stretch kevlar or spectra lines,also it needs a clear path for the 2-4 blocks you will need to run the lines to the helm,with little or no play,and a way of re-tensioning the lines.

also be sure there is no play on the paddle coupling,as a worn tube will effect its efficiency.

also bear in mind that you need to sail the boat with balanced sails according to your course,this generally means depowering the mainsail when off the wind,otherwise the aries will be fighting the weather/lee helm,and not steer properly.

6 turns lock to lock is a normal wheel configuration.

clean all working parts with parafin,and use light sewing machine oil for lubication once all parts free.

spares available here
http://www.ariesvane.com/contact.html

Celestialsailor · 19-01-2012, 08:53

I had an Ingrid 38 with a tiller and a barn door rudder. Anything over 20knts of wind, going to weather was a chore to hang onto the tiller. I had a Monitor vane and used it to steer the boat. I came to depend on the Monitor for long distance steering. I probably only steered the boat 1% of the time. All I suggest is that you rely on the Aries more and not go through the hassle of converting it to wheel. Not much can go wrong with the direct linkage from tiller to rudder.

JulianGullsway · 19-01-2012, 09:10

Mate,

Thats music to my ears, I'am really keen to give this fantastic peice of equipment a go, we had a 16 hr sail from St Vallery to Bolougne last year and that was when we decided the wheel had to go back in, if we had the wind vane it would have made life a hell of a lot easier as our Simrad auto pilot couldnt cope, where are you in Cornwall I have a brother who lives there??

JulianGullsway · 19-01-2012, 09:15

Cheers Celestial Sir, we have already converted her back to a wheel, it cost a fortune but we have already seen the benefits, we are moored on a very small river in Essex (River Crouch) and often just go up to the mouth for day sails and to see the seals and the odd bit of fishing tacking up and down the river would be no good for an Aries, Thanks for your input !!-)

atoll · 19-01-2012, 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianGullsway

Mate,

Thats music to my ears, I'am really keen to give this fantastic peice of equipment a go, we had a 16 hr sail from St Vallery to Bolougne last year and that was when we decided the wheel had to go back in, if we had the wind vane it would have made life a hell of a lot easier as our Simrad auto pilot couldnt cope, where are you in Cornwall I have a brother who lives there??

in penryn,about a mile from falmouth,the lady that does the aries spares is virtually my neighbour!

JulianGullsway · 19-01-2012, 09:31

Thats Helen I believe, she's lovely and was helping me to find a clutch/ Drum but I have since found one, My Brother is living in Falmouth, he moved for m Essex 2 years ago and vowed never to return, dont blame him!! Thanks again for the info

atoll · 19-01-2012, 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianGullsway

Thats Helen I believe, she's lovely and was helping me to find a clutch/ Drum but I have since found one, My Brother is living in Falmouth, he moved for m Essex 2 years ago and vowed never to return, dont blame him!! Thanks again for the info

no worries,if you are in the area drop us a line!

JulianGullsway · 19-01-2012, 09:50

Will do, I owe my brother a visit, great sailing ground we would love to get down that way on Gullsway, its just such a journey from Essex, but we are planning a trip to the Med in the next year or so, Stay in touch!!

**roverhi** · 19-01-2012, 10:31

6 turns lock to lock would drive me crazy, like driving a bus with such numb steering. Oh well, to each his own. YOu should have used your vane more before switching over. Our Westsail 32, which had a large unbalanced rudder, was a bit of a handful to steer on a reach but way better with a tiller than any wheel I've ever used. But then we never steered the boat under sail, Nick did the work. Our Aries steered the boat if it was under sail, period. As soon as the sails went up we hooked in the vane o steer. Worked great short tacking. 15 clicks on the control line and the vane would bring the boat about. All I had to do was trim the sails.

Pendulum Servo vanes don't work well with hydraulic steering. There is a bit of leakage in hydraulics so the reference point is constantly changing. You'd have to constantly declutch and reclutch the wheel adapter to keep with the moving reference point. Might be okay for local cruising when you are on deck most of the time but a pain on a long passage. With that many turns in the wheel, the vane will probably not have the ability to pull enough 'string' to effectively steer the boat, in any case. You can decrease the mechanical advantage/increase the amount of input from the vane using blocks in the vane to wheel linkage. Check out the SailoMat site for their installation manual, it details how to set it up. SAILOMAT

The best setup would be to connect the vane to a stub tiller and plum a bypass into your hydraulic steering system. That way the vane will work directly on the rudder without the interference of the wheel steering. The bypass valve in the hydraulics drops it completely out of the system so the vane doesn't have to fight the resistance of the hydraulic ram. You'd have the best of both worlds.

atoll · 19-01-2012, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by roverhi

6 turns lock to lock would drive me crazy, like driving a bus with such numb steering. Oh well, to each his own. YOu should have used your vane more before switching over. Our Westsail 32, which had a large unbalanced rudder, was a bit of a handful to steer on a reach but way better with a tiller than any wheel I've ever used. But then we never steered the boat under sail, Nick did the work. Our Aries steered the boat if it was under sail, period. As soon as the sails went up we hooked in the vane o steer. Worked great short tacking. 15 clicks on the control line and the vane would bring the boat about. All I had to do was trim the sails.

Pendulum Servo vanes don't work well with hydraulic steering. There is a bit of leakage in hydraulics so the reference point is constantly changing. You'd have to constantly declutch and reclutch the wheel adapter to keep with the moving reference point. Might be okay for local cruising when you are on deck most of the time but a pain on a long passage. With that many turns in the wheel, the vane will probably not have the ability to pull enough 'string' to effectively steer the boat, in any case. You can decrease the mechanical advantage/increase the amount of input from the vane using blocks in the vane to wheel linkage. Check out the SailoMat site for their installation manual, it details how to set it up. SAILOMAT

The best setup would be to connect the vane to a stub tiller and plum a bypass into your hydraulic steering system. That way the vane will work directly on the rudder without the interference of the wheel steering. The bypass valve in the hydraulics drops it completely out of the system so the vane doesn't have to fight the resistance of the hydraulic ram. You'd have the best of both worlds.

no auto pilot is going to work well if there is leakage from the hydralics!
was going to head my post with "bollock's" but,then decided against it,as some of what you say is true,re using the tiller.

Celestialsailor · 19-01-2012, 10:47

Yes...I just caught that part of Julian's post. A windvane does not work on hydraulic steering because of it's slip factor. Now...having said that, I have gotten around that on my HR with the addition of a tiller on the rudder post which sticks out the aft of the deck and a by-pass valve on the hydraulic system.

atoll · 19-01-2012, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Yes...I just caught that part of Julian's post. A windvane does not work on hydraulic steering because of it's slip factor. Now...having said that, I have gotten around that on my HR with the addition of a tiller on the rudder post which sticks out the aft of the deck and a by-pass valve on the hydraulic system.

again as is common on the forum,you are citing misinformation,if your hydralic system is slipping and it is time for new seals,or a new pump.

there shoud be no slip on a proprly installed system that has been maintained.

we managed 60,000 miles with 0% slip on a properly installed system,of the correct size for the vessel.

**Jim Cate** · 19-01-2012, 11:12

G'Day JG,

I have to agree with Roverhi... I expect that the Aires will have a hard time with 6 turns l-l, and that if there is any leakage in the hydraulics the problem will be exacerbated. His suggestion of hooking the vane to a short tiller is an excellent one, and is often done in situations like yours.

One way of visualizing the issue is to try watching the wheel as you are steering. See how far the wheel has to move to make the normal course corrections (especially in heavy weather). Then visualize how far the lines leading to the small drum on the wheel will have to travel to accomplish the same rotation. Move the paddle on the Airies back and forth manually and see if it generates enough wheel movement. My long-distance guess is that it won't, but a pleasant surprise may be there.

The stub tiller will avoid all of that issue, and shouldn't be too hard to install.

Good luck,

Jim

Celestialsailor · 19-01-2012, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by atoll

again as is common on the forum,you are citing misinformation,if your hydralic system is slipping and it is time for new seals,or a new pump.

there shoud be no slip on a proprly installed system that has been maintained.

we managed 60,000 miles with 0% slip on a properly installed system,of the correct size for the vessel.

Then I guess Sailomat and Monitor are misinformed