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Old 31-03-2012, 15:31   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater

Broad statements all risk being silly. This is one such example.

a. Depends on where you run the jacklines. If you run them on the outside of the deck, yup, that's a problem. Run further in, not so much.

b. Depends on whether you think you need to stand tall. You don't.

c. Depends on how long the tether is. 6' is often too long and 3 ' is sometimes too long. No one said they need be long enough for a dance.

d. Gettin someone back on board is not that tough, only most folks never practice. Can you get your dingy on board while moving? Then you can recover a person. If not, learn. Clue: attach second line and cut the tether loose. 90% of tethers are, IMHO, too long, because long is more convenient.

Don't blame the technology for misapplication. However, most sailors should experiment with shortening their tethers; Instead of 3' and 6', try something where you cannot be thrown out of reach of the lower rail. You may have to crouch, but without the tether you would do that anyway.
I suspect you have very little serious experience here.

A . Firstly yes running Jacklines down the middle would be a big help, almost impossible on most yachts.

B, most people find they need to stand at times. But even on your knees I have seen people washed bodily over. ( usually takes part of the stanctions out too)

C. The tethers make little difference 3foot tether in the middle of a typical Jacklines will let u go over

D. As to recovering someone, your statement is nonsense. Getting a tired frightened people in full wet gear in cold mid Atlantic water back on board is a massive task. After about 10 mins the person in the water cannot hold a rope much less tie a knot. In 20 minutes they are borderline unconscious.


In my direct experience I had to cut the tether or I would have drowned. I now carry a quick release Wichard tether as a result. It proved utterly and completely impossible to get me back on via the route I went over ( I'm 6'4") I cut myself free as under pressure of movement I found (a) I was been dragged under and (b) due to the force I couldn't undo my tether. It was not a pleasant moment.

Jacklines are useless, if by whatever system you rig , they allow you to fall overboard. Once overboard they can be a killer. The conventional side deck rigged jacklines are mostly useless. Many rig them and do myself as well on deliveries because it's all I have. But a better system would be pad eyes and double ended tethers.

My comment was not a broad statement it was a carefully considered one based on experience in nasty waters and based on the typical yacht setup of such lines.

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Old 31-03-2012, 15:43   #77
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Broad statements all risk being silly. This is one such example.

a. Depends on where you run the jacklines. If you run them on the outside of the deck, yup, that's a problem. Run further in, not so much.

b. Depends on whether you think you need to stand tall. You don't.

c. Depends on how long the tether is. 6' is often too long and 3 ' is sometimes too long. No one said they need be long enough for a dance.

d. Gettin someone back on board is not that tough, only most folks never practice. Can you get your dingy on board while moving? Then you can recover a person. If not, learn. Clue: attach second line and cut the tether loose. 90% of tethers are, IMHO, too long, because long is more convenient.

Don't blame the technology for misapplication. However, most sailors should experiment with shortening their tethers; Instead of 3' and 6', try something where you cannot be thrown out of reach of the lower rail. You may have to crouch, but without the tether you would do that anyway.
I use a 6' & a 3', but I run a loop around and back into my harness, cuts lenght in half. I do this at the mast w/ the short tether holds me were need to be w/o being thrown around. Been doing this since the early 70's & works well for me. Michael..
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Old 31-03-2012, 16:28   #78
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Rope will roll under your feet when stepped on, so webbing is preferred. Soak in seawater, and when attached it will dry to a very tight line. Check the tightness from time to time.

Only spend as much money on things that wil save your life as you think your life is worth.

When I used jacklines, going forward, I crawled on my hands and knees with the tether doubled to shorten it. I always went back and forth on the high side of the deck and crossed over to whatever needed attention. I used two tethers so that I could safely attach the second before releasing the first. At night or in rough seas I was straped in while in the cockpit.
I always tried to have the length of the tether short enough so that I'd stay on the boat.
Being a singlehandler, my biggest fear was to be treading water watching my boat disappear over the horizon.
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Old 31-03-2012, 16:40   #79
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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Originally Posted by John A View Post
Rope will roll under your feet when stepped on, so webbing is preferred. Soak in seawater, and when attached it will dry to a very tight line. Check the tightness from time to time.

Only spend as much money on things that wil save your life as you think your life is worth.

When I used jacklines, going forward, I crawled on my hands and knees with the tether doubled to shorten it. I always went back and forth on the high side of the deck and crossed over to whatever needed attention. I used two tethers so that I could safely attach the second before releasing the first. At night or in rough seas I was straped in while in the cockpit.
I always tried to have the length of the tether short enough so that I'd stay on the boat.
Being a singlehandler, my biggest fear was to be treading water watching my boat disappear over the horizon.
Amen, that's every singlehander's worse fear. With the old tiller master w/ a dial to set course, I would attach a lever w/ a line [1/8"] dragging behind w/ a spring to keep line tension from changing the setting. I alway's though that if I fell over, I might get lucky and find the line, give a tug and set the boat in irons. Never have to see if it would work. Thank God. New units are digital, so that's out now. Anyone else out there have any crazy idea's..Michael..
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:39   #80
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As the OP I felt obligated to gets back to all who provided input.

I splurged for the flat web jacklines. The line runs from the forward cleat, then once around the mast and then to the deck winch. I then use winch to put about one hundred pounds of tension on the line. Since the halyards are all on the mast, two quick hitches at the winch hold the line in place.

For now the dodger has no front so I clip on in the cockpit and go out over the companionway hatch. With a three foot tether,I know I am not going over the side! But at 6'3" I am not standing erect, but that lowers my CoG anyway. Once at the mast, I can clip onto the whisker pole eye or take the long tether once around the mast. Forward of the mast I clip onto the jackline again. The greatest exposure is when I get to the mast and change clip points. At that point for one or two seconds I am being held by the six foot line and could go over.

Future enhancements will be to shortened the jackline and marry it to some 3/8 line and to mount an eye to the mast. Then the jackline will go from the forward cleat,through the eye, and 1-2 feet forward of the combing transition to rope where it will go through a clutch and get tensioned by the cabin top winch.

After getting rolled to 20 degrees coming through the Boca Inlet, I also learned to clip in to both sides of the helm when the inlet is rough!

Thanks again to all

Bill
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:01   #81
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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Price matching with who. ? Defender. ? They have driven every other contender out of business and now offer minimal inventory at top dollar. I was in a West Marine in South Miami recently and was shocked at their minimal stock and over pricing. Sorry but its a prime example of allowing monopolistic business practices in this country. ! !
I go on line and find my best price, print it and hand it to the clerk/manager. No Problem. I too hated seeing our Boat US and Boater's world go.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:05   #82
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Re: Why use flat webbing as jacklines instead of rope?

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Rope (Line) will roll under your foot. This can cause sprained ankle, broken foot or even a permanent swim. The one thing I hate about web is when it's wet, it loosens up.
Exactly correct, however, I raced on a boat that had a convenient spot bow to stern where the cabin top met the deck. We had a plastic coated steel cable jack line resting in this joint. Not a tripping or roll hazzard in 18 years.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:11   #83
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
Is there a webbing that does not stretch when it gets wet?

I ask this because I had a bad experience with having very taught jacklines when getting underway and then have them loosen up as soon as we had a few splashes on the deck. It made me nervous when having to go forward in some rollicking seas. I think a loose jackline is pretty much worthless for keeping you aboard.
kind regards,

I call my line from bow to mast a "ridge line." It has to be good and tight -- securing it with a trucker's hitch is one option. I think it's especially important near the bow, where the boat is susceptible to unexpected moves AND is very narrow.

If the water is rough, I CRAWL to the bow. Keeping your center of gravity low helps.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:18   #84
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Broad statements all risk being silly. This is one such example.

a. Depends on where you run the jacklines. If you run them on the outside of the deck, yup, that's a problem. Run further in, not so much.

b. Depends on whether you think you need to stand tall. You don't.

c. Depends on how long the tether is. 6' is often too long and 3 ' is sometimes too long. No one said they need be long enough for a dance.

d. Gettin someone back on board is not that tough, only most folks never practice. Can you get your dingy on board while moving? Then you can recover a person. If not, learn. Clue: attach second line and cut the tether loose. 90% of tethers are, IMHO, too long, because long is more convenient.

Don't blame the technology for misapplication. However, most sailors should experiment with shortening their tethers; Instead of 3' and 6', try something where you cannot be thrown out of reach of the lower rail. You may have to crouch, but without the tether you would do that anyway.

"a. Depends on where you run the jacklines. If you run them on the outside of the deck, yup, that's a problem. Run further in, not so much."

Depends on how long your tether is. If your tether is long enough to let you go over the side, it's not protecting you -- only your drowned body, which will be found with the boat.

"running the lines further in" is exactly what was explained by the person explaining safety lines running from the mast rather than down the side of the boat. We're all kind of saying the same thing.

The "one hand for you, one hand for the boat is good advice, but my neighbor was holding on to the mast when he was thrown off the cabin top. It was a short tether attached to the mast that saved him. He is the only person I know saved by a tether and I take his experience seriously.

I also have a drag line. On my old tiller boat, I clipped it to the tiller. Then I took her out and tested her. I deployed the drag line, and then yanked hard on it, as if it had my weight on it.

The boat immediately heaved itself to and stopped dead in the water. I put loops in the line (polypropylene). I figured if I was dumb enough to go over, I'd be dumb enough to go over without my gloves on, and polypro can be really hard to hold on to when it's dry.

That approach won't work with my bigger, wheel-steered boat. I'm going to try dragging it from the bow to see if the weight of a sailor hanging on to it would be enough to turn the boat in a circle. But from the bow, esp. because of my high freeboard, I'm thinking I would also need loops hanging from the stanchion so I could work my way back to the ladder.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:22   #85
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

I would like to comment on the use of climbing flat webbing for jacklines. The main problem with it is that it stretches. It is designed that way so that there is not such a great shock load on your protection when falling. If you take the stretch and combine it with the slack created in the middle of a modest (35') boat I would surmise that with out too much effort you could get the Jack line to stretch near to the side of the boat. I believe it was Beth and Evans who suggested using a high tech small diamediamer low stretch line and running it thru the inexpensive flat webbing. BTW you can buy the flat webbing from an electrical supply store for less money. It is called mule tape. Beth and Evans FAQ 81 on their website talks about their jacklines.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:33   #86
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Let's not get all upset.


By Go Boating Now
"I suspect you have very little serious experience here."
Believe what you want. A silly thing to say.

"A . Firstly yes running Jacklines down the middle would be a big help, almost impossible on most yachts."
I didn't say that. I suggested there are a range of answers. My statement was to the effect that one-size-fits-all answers don't. My jackline run on the edge of the cabin trunk rather than the deck, which is a good location on my boat, though perhaps not on others. Down the center, as some have suggested, is not my choice.

"B. Most people find they need to stand at times. But even on your knees I have seen people washed bodily over. (usually takes part of the stanchions out too)."
I didn't say kneel or crawl; I said don't stand tall, which allows the short leg of the tether to be shorter. Crouch sometimes. And that is absolutely good practice. And I'm sure you've seen people bodily washed over. I would suggest the tether may have been too long (wasn't there, don't know). I do know that on cats this can be prevented by short lines since the deck is wide; I was once knocked a complete flip when blasting through a large breaking wave and the tether kept me on the tramp without a bruise. The truth in my very vivid expereince.

"C. The tethers make little difference 3 foot tether in the middle of a typical Jacklines will let u go over."
First, 3-feet is often too long; we're back to the one size fits all problem. My short leg is less than that. If I did go over I would be within reach of the lines and within reach of the crew.

"D. As to recovering someone, your statement is nonsense. Getting a tired frightened people in full wet gear in cold mid Atlantic water back on board is a massive task. After about 10 mins the person in the water cannot hold a rope much less tie a knot. In 20 minutes they are borderline unconscious."
I'm not suggesting that the swimmer does anything; contrary, any good system must assume they are a 200-pound bag of potatoes. Attach another line to the tether, cut the tether loose, and winch them back. Yes, the worse the weather the more massive the task. Though I've never recovered a person this way, I've recovered objects much larger than a person in full conditions, in the winter, single handing. I'm an engineer and when we approach rigging projects (really heavy objects) we never use manpower; the recovery must be planned and be based on repeatable engineering. It must look easy.

"In my direct experience I had to cut the tether or I would have drowned. I now carry a quick release Wichard tether as a result. It proved utterly and completely impossible to get me back on via the route I went over ( I'm 6'4") I cut myself free as under pressure of movement I found (a) I was been dragged under and (b) due to the force I couldn't undo my tether. It was not a pleasant moment."
I don't doubt that for a moment. The truth, which you learned the hard way, is that most quick-release snaps will not under load. I know Practical Sailor is looking into this. I find it staggering and perhaps even irresponsible that the equipment manufacturers sell safety equipment they haven't truly tested. Why call something a quick release when it does not?

"Jacklines are useless, if by whatever system you rig, they allow you to fall overboard. Once overboard they can be a killer. The conventional side deck rigged jacklines are mostly useless. Many rig them and do myself as well on deliveries because it's all I have. But a better system would be pad eyes and double ended tethers."
There is some truth in this. When single handing they are all you have, and I single hand much of the time. If I were racing with many boats around, I'm sure I would sometimes agree it might be safer to do without.

"My comment was not a broad statement it was a carefully considered one based on experience in nasty waters and based on the typical yacht setup of such lines."
"Jacklines don't" is a broad statement. I don't want folks to think that is necessarily true and that they should give up on the concept. It is sometimes true.

____________

Most of the folks reading this forum never sail in cold water or in the winter. Most never single hand. Most avoid storms. I suspect most tethers are used to keep folks near the boat if they trip over their own feet in fair weather, but perhaps at night or with the chute up. For that, tethers are very practical. As for rough conditions, The Volvo race teams seem fully equipped. I'm guessing they know something.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:35   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie
I would like to comment on the use of climbing flat webbing for jacklines. The main problem with it is that it stretches. It is designed that way so that there is not such a great shock load on your protection when falling. If you take the stretch and combine it with the slack created in the middle of a modest (35') boat I would surmise that with out too much effort you could get the Jack line to stretch near to the side of the boat. .
Although my jackline is only 30 days old, it has zero stretch. Perhaps that is the difference between buying a jackline and using webbing. .
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:12   #88
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Wink Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

Boom! Boom! Boom! Boom! How! How! How! How! Sorry I couldn't help it. Just got to thinkin' of the song; "Smoke Stack Lightnin"!
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:13   #89
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Re: Why Use Flat Webbing as Jacklines Instead of Rope ?

For those who drag a line to grab on to when they fall overboad, I suggest two experiments: While sailing at 5 knots, toss something that floats overboard and note how quick the boat is 300 yards from it, picture your self recovering from the shock of the fall and the disorientation you'll need to overcome intime to hold-on to the rope. Next, while still at five knots, atttach a thirty foot line to a two gallon bucket and toss it overboard to fill with water, as you retrieve the bucket, realize that the weight is only twenty pounds and compare that with your weight.

It's better to figure out ways to stay onboard than how to get back onboard! IMHO
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:17   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The whole concept of jacklines is flawed like a lot of boat safety. Harnesses and their tethers need to keep u aboard. Jacklines don't

Dave
Because most people tie their jack lines so they lie on the deck next to the lifelines and also have vastly to long tethers on thier harness.

If you tie your jack lines inside your shrouds, obviously depending on your boat, and as close to the mast as possible and also shorten your tether from the length at is supplied when you buy them then the concept works well.

We use tubular webbing bought from a climbing store and we write in indelible marker the date we bought it, you didn't think they last forever did ya? They degrade like hell in uv and climbers limit the time they use them based on exposure date and why shouldn't we?

We also tie,the,m inside the shrouds, our shrouds are at the rail so no problem.

My only issue is that to do this I tie the to a point in front of the dog house. So we welded a tether point on port and starboard so i can clip on and unclip the other tether that allows me to enter the cockpit without being unattached.

Sounds like a pain in the ass but it isnt. It allows me to get to the mast to reef the main and get to the headsails to change them. It also keeps me from being washed overboard.

What it doesnt do is keep me from being pasted into the shrouds when green water comes over the bow and washes me back and slams me against the shrouds...

...slams may be a bit dramatic, but makes for a better story
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