Use old standing rigging? Ever had a failure?

[daletournier]

People stretch the time out because they don't want to spend the money, they find reasons to justify their decisions.

I "don't trust stainless steel" I changed my rigging prior to this trip because it was fifteen years old, was it OK? I don't know as I don't have x ray vision, can't see inside the lower swages. I know stainless steel breaks, I've seen it. A couple of times in very average weather this year in the middle of the night I felt very happy that I spent the money and replaced the rigging, one less thing I had to worry about at the time.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by fox9988

I'd like to hear from those that have pushed the 10-15 year rule. I'd guess some are using 45 year old standing rigging. Anyone care to confess?

You're not going to get very useful information by just asking for a show of hands.

The integrity of older rigging is a function of several factors including initial quality of the compnants and installation, how much the boat has been used, in what kind of conditions, in what waters, the type of rigging, etc.

I know of several boats where a major rigging failure occurred within 10 years of new.

I know of a Valiant that just had it's rigging replaced after @ 40 years, multiple circumnavigations, and constant live-aboard use all over the planet. That said they were living on borrowed time and an inspection of the rigging revealed that the fact that they had not suffered a major failure was a near miracle.

I rerigged my boat over the past year. All the rigging was 30+ years old (Navtec rod). Would it have been serviceable for another 5 years? Perhaps.

If your real question is "Should I replace my old rigging or not?" we're going to need a lot more information to give you any useful answers.

[crankysailor]

Originally Posted by fox9988

I'd like to hear from those that have pushed the 10-15 year rule. I'd guess some are using 45 year old standing rigging. Anyone care to confess?

There are countless threads and posts explaining that an inspection doesn't show internal/work hardening issues and that scheduled replacement is the only way to avoid loosing your mast. That isn't the question here.

Not sure what you want to hear from the group of sailors with 15+ yr old rigs? that they are fine? sure.. most of them will say that cause the other group, the unlucky ones are no longer around to tell the tale

To me it is simple engineering. A critical piece has a lifespan. Nothing lasts forever. You say ok.. during normal use, this piece should last 15 years. The longer you go past this point, the higher the chance of failure.. 16 years.. well.. some % extra chance.. 17 years.. another coin toss.. you keep tossing the coin. Some people have gotten lucky and tossed it 40 years. Some unlucky and didn't even make it to 15.. you get to decide on your own what % chance are you willing to live with given your situation (family on board? solo?) and how tired of living you are.

PS: If a rigger says he would have kept using a rig beyond 15 years, time to change riggers .. unless he has X ray vision or some seriously sweet material testing facilities.

PS of the PS: I wasn't a fan of S/V Delos until I saw their rigging episodes. Totally recommended and on topic.. particularly the part with the incompetent rigger in Langkawi.. and then when they take off the old rig, etc.. good learning boys!

[thomm225]

Then there are those of use that have no idea the age of our rigging. I know it was cruised for two years, sat on the hard for 5 years, and I've owned it for 6 years.

I never had a chance to speak with the PO of my boat but I'm thinking that since it has 8 stays and a 30' mast without a spinnaker it should be good for another 5-10 years.

(But) Since I'm out of adjustment on the backstay, I may have to replace the rigging sooner rather than later if I keep this boat

It appears some parts and pieces were replace on the rigging and the entire boat before the PO took that finally cruise to the Bahamas etc.

[thinwater]

The responses:

No failure: 21, 32, 44, 17, and >30 years.

Failure: 9 and 13 years.

I doubt this is representative, but there is no pattern suggesting that replacement at 15 years would have prevented failure. I'm also wondering whether the failure at 9 years was purely fatigue or actually an installation or design error. I had a cracked fitting at about 8 years on a boat, and it was bad design causing flexing, not age.

Put another way, rigging is either designed and installed well, does not flex, and will last a long time, or it is underspeced and/or designed poorly, and will flex and fail in 5-15 years. But it is impossible for the average person to tell which they are looking at, without digging deep into math they have not studied. Hence the uncertainty.

Chain plates are perhaps more age related, as the bad ones I have seen all had corrosion issues. But still, some designs are more vulnerable than others.

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Politeness, everyone.

* Ask your insurance company what exactly?
* Define the economy. I'm guessing the actual economy is several hundred times in favor of inspecting and stretching far beyond 15 years.
* Are there ignorant people out there? Yes, thank you for explaining that.

It is never wrong to ask questions related to "why" or "please provide support." I'm guessing he wonders if the odds of dropping a mast are 10,000:1 (and I bet they are for most sailors), a purely financial argument may be weak. I've changed rigging, but I'm pretty sure he is right. We do it for safety and confidence more than dollars and cents. I can admit that.

Many times if you have an agreed value policy, but are dismasted the insurer will not pay full value on replacement if rigging is beyond a certain age. Depends on insurer.

Some will ask for a rigging inspection be performed as well as an insurance survey. I do not pass any rigging that is know to be older than 10 years for insurance purposes.

Maybe it’s fine? But I’ve replaced standing rigging just over 20 years old with multiple failed swages.

[puffcard]

No one is saying it, bit the older wire and fittings are much better quality than the newer stuff. It's not even close. I replaced my original rigging at 33 years old. No failures. It was a New England boat where the yard pulled the mast each year and inspected it. The wire looked great, but it was hit by lightning and had started to get what I call the candy stripes. The older boats with European SS fittings have the best SS, doesn't rust near as fast as today's junk from China. How often the boat is used and the type of use. A boat that only sails on the Great Lakes 3 months a year, is very different than a boat sailing or racing nonstop all year. Salt, freezing water, vibration and loading are the killers. I'm using my boat more year round and looking to replace every 8-10 years. The tropics are the worst. Another thing if you keep your boat in LA or in a place where you are subject to corrosive air, like heavy sea mist they'll shorten the life of wire. Wash off rig if you can and never use chlorine products on SS.

[Kalinka1]

Our boat is 41 years old. I replaced the forstay,back stay, two uppers and two lowers with new 304 wire in 2009. I used the old forstay and back stay for two of the lowers. All the original wire had swaged fittings I replaced them with stay locks. When I cut the old wire everything was fine. I thing the wire itself is probably good for a very long time but it's at the fittings where the problem is and these are what need to be checked every year or so. i don't recall ever hearing of the wire breaking anywhere else but at the fittings.

[Boatguy30]

Originally Posted by puffcard

No one is saying it, bit the older wire and fittings are much better quality than the newer stuff. It's not even close. I replaced my original rigging at 33 years old. No failures. It was a New England boat where the yard pulled the mast each year and inspected it. The wire looked great, but it was hit by lightning and had started to get what I call the candy stripes. The older boats with European SS fittings have the best SS, doesn't rust near as fast as today's junk from China. How often the boat is used and the type of use. A boat that only sails on the Great Lakes 3 months a year, is very different than a boat sailing or racing nonstop all year. Salt, freezing water, vibration and loading are the killers. I'm using my boat more year round and looking to replace every 8-10 years. The tropics are the worst. Another thing if you keep your boat in LA or in a place where you are subject to corrosive air, like heavy sea mist they'll shorten the life of wire. Wash off rig if you can and never use chlorine products on SS.

I and likely most other reputable riggers DO NOT sell any standing rigging components made in China. It’s true that the European wire and fitting available until perhaps the early 90s were very good.

[double u]

"European wire and fitting available until perhaps the early 90s were very good"
thinking along similar lines ("we're never going to get standing rigging as good as this one!") we kept our +8 year old standing rigging, the "real french mccoy" with engraved identification numbers (every swage it's own number!) after it's first rtw for another one...& lo & behold, nearly all the way around the second time a strand on a lower parted coming up the Red Sea...no drama, but didn't really increase our peace of mind either...
(my conclusion: no matter how good, one day it's going to be knackered!)

[rosatte]

Replaced standing rigging on a 1991 Catalina last yr always freshwater boat and mast down in winter rigger said the rigging was in perfect shape and would last another 10yrs so there go s the 10 yr and replace theory

[tiopirata]

Stainless steel is marvelous stuff right up to the minute it's not. Just saying.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by rosatte

Replaced standing rigging on a 1991 Catalina last yr always freshwater boat and mast down in winter rigger said the rigging was in perfect shape and would last another 10yrs so there go s the 10 yr and replace theory

Fresh water, half a year use. Changes things abit.

[Tessellate]

My Navtec rod rig was 33 years old when I replaced it last year. No failures. I know a few boats going on 40 years with rod.

In my opinion, this isn't a pointless question because it highlights the fact that there's no scientific basis for any fixed # of years that someone quotes you. 10 years, 15 years? Those numbers are meaningless. There are many factors that go into rig life, so making up an arbitrary number for rig life is just a futile as declaring how many engine hours a diesel engine is guaranteed to die at.

So this thread highlights the fact that the 10-15 year number is baloney. This is something I didn't realize for several years because I was reading the same bad advice on Internet websites and forums. But later I found simply walking down the dock and asking about rig age would reveal many boats in the 30-40 yr range.

That doesn't mean it's extendable to your situation (many boats don't really sail anyway, they just motor). And there are very good reasons to replace old rigging. But the OP didn't ask that, so I'm sticking to the stated questions.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by fox9988

I'd like to hear from those that have pushed the 10-15 year rule. I'd guess some are using 45 year old standing rigging. Anyone care to confess?

There are countless threads and posts explaining that an inspection doesn't show internal/work hardening issues and that scheduled replacement is the only way to avoid loosing your mast. That isn't the question here.

Yes. My rigging on my freshwater-mostly 33 footer was original when I replaced it at 39 years of age having owned it since it was 25 years of age. In my defence, I wouldn't attempt this in salt water and in Toronto, you haul and can closely inspect the mast and rigging every winter. https://alchemy2009.blogspot.ca/2013...ging-game.html

I would add that we are readying the boat in the profile picture (5/16ths inch, 12 stays/shrouds, Sta-Lok terminals and beefy pins) for offshore work. It has original rigging that looks new from 1988 and has never seen salt water. It won't by the time we leave. We will bring at least a couple of stays as spares after confirming it's still good with a dye test and maybe an X-ray.