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Old 23-12-2015, 18:12   #31
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

I recently faced the same issue with a 1978 Bombay Pilothouse that I knew still had orig rigging. Looking closely at lower swages I saw many almost microscopic cracks. So the change was inevitable. Then I went on to do various calculations looking for a good balance of cost versus quality. A local rigger quoted me $1700 for everything. Sta-loks while reusing old wire which looked fine was considered as well. In the end there was very little difference money wise between sta-loks and all new wire especially if I used riggingonly.com to order. So this is the way I went and have all new rigging for about $850. For the cost of some beer and promise to reciprocate, I had a friend at the marina go up the mast to change things out. You have to measure carefully but it worked fine for me and on recent days of high wind sailing it has been great to have no concern for the rigging. That is not much money for huge peace of mind. I guess this puts me in the camp of change the rigging out...
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Old 23-12-2015, 18:18   #32
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

If your a serious cruiser, a fresh rig is always better. We changed our rig on our old ws43 in Aussieland and then spent three months battling against hurricane winds throughout the Indian Ocean back in 86(stupidity on our part). By the time we got to Cape Town the new rig was fried with fish hooks, cracked plates, and so forth. An old rig would have gone by the boards. So sometimes a new rig might just last several months. It really depends on how much your life is worth.
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Old 23-12-2015, 20:32   #33
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
I am assuming this site is about cruising, not day sailing nor weekend racing. Most long distance cruisers will replace their rigs many times. Three years for a world cruise, two if you do it in the great southern seas. You say folks use swage but that is usually for the day/weekend sailors, not for those crossing oceans. If you had read Practical sailor's tests about 25 years ago you would have been aware that norsemen did not perform aswell and Lok got much higher reviews which is why many cruisers changed over. Swage fittings reduce the wire's strength. Cone fittings retain their strength. So get out more, read more, do more and you will be on top of all this rigging stuff.
So you think this site is only for you seasoned offshore vets? Oh, by the way, we did sail across the Pacific this year from Panama to New Zealand - not that it makes any real difference.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:35   #34
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Point is, SS is from Far East, or lower quality than before.....
I have been looking into doing an immediate standing rigging replacement as soon as I get my boat (many potential prospects look to have original rigging), and, sad to say, am coming across a few confirmations of this - along the lines of "Cheap and nasty and unreliable from day 1".

I was already thinking along the lines of going up a size from standard (if a boat didn't have upsized rigging as standard anyway), and now I am seriously considering avoiding using stainless at all, and going with galvanised.

I have only just started looking, and there seems to be a shortage of size options with galvanised (I have only seen 1/4" so far)?

It also begs the serious question of how far the use of this "Cheap and nasty" ss is extending into fittings and other equipment? I'd be extremely annoyed (and then some) if this hidden weakness could perhaps have an adverse effect on anchors, for example.

The term "Not fit for purpose" springs immediately to mind . . . . .

Any advice on somewhere to shop and what to shop for?
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:01   #35
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

I've been happy with what I got from Sailboat Rigging,Hardware & Accessories | Rigging Only's Online Store
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Old 03-01-2016, 14:13   #36
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

The best quality stainless 1 x 19 comes from Korea. Better than US made stainless.
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Old 03-01-2016, 17:38   #37
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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The best quality stainless 1 x 19 comes from Korea. Better than US made stainless.
So Imported 3/8" by 1 x 19 Non Flexible Stainless Steel Commercial Grade Aircraft Cable, at $350.00 for a 250 Foot Spool, should be reliable enough to do the job (approx. 32ft boat) ok?

"1 X 19 is a non-flexible strand of nineteen wires widely used as standing rigging on sail boats. It is also well suited for push-pull, yacht rigging, and guying applications.

Breaking Strength (LBS.) 17,500 "

They don't say what Stainless it is though (should be worth a call to find out I suppose, if anyone is local to Burbank, CA):

3/8" 1x19, Imported Stainless Steel Cable,
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Old 03-01-2016, 19:21   #38
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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So Imported 3/8" by 1 x 19 Non Flexible Stainless Steel Commercial Grade Aircraft Cable, at $350.00 for a 250 Foot Spool, should be reliable enough to do the job (approx. 32ft boat) ok?

"1 X 19 is a non-flexible strand of nineteen wires widely used as standing rigging on sail boats. It is also well suited for push-pull, yacht rigging, and guying applications.

Breaking Strength (LBS.) 17,500 "

They don't say what Stainless it is though (should be worth a call to find out I suppose, if anyone is local to Burbank, CA):

3/8" 1x19, Imported Stainless Steel Cable,
Doesn't say where it is imported from. Could be anywhere, maybe Chinese. Best to buy wire from a recognized source for keeping a rig in place I think. The rig is one place I will not buy second rate to save a few dollars.
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Old 04-01-2016, 13:56   #39
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

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Doesn't say where it is imported from. Could be anywhere, maybe Chinese. Best to buy wire from a recognized source for keeping a rig in place I think. The rig is one place I will not buy second rate to save a few dollars.

That's why I was looking for aircraft/military grade wire, to ensure it was at least first rate (and maybe even better).

Plus for the size boat I am after, 3/8" should be two sizes up (a bit belt and braces).

PS the breaking strain is right for 316 stainless that size.
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Old 06-01-2016, 03:09   #40
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

I am pulling my mast and changing rigging today. Going with 316 stainless. Read recently that 'aircraft grade' is not what you want. It is not intended for marine boat use. As I understand it has to do with tensile strength. You want a wire that can stretch a bit to take the movement created by the boat in the water. Aircraft stainless is not made for that type of repeating movement. You do not want to repeat the rerig in 2 years.
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Old 06-01-2016, 06:34   #41
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

For the OP, as the majority here have said, your rigging wire is past due to be put out to pasture. Re-rig her prior to launching, & maybe keep the old bits around to be used if things get dire.

For a good explanation as to some of what goes into making quality wire, & the Q&A done by Rigging Only/Rigging & Harware, to ensure that the stuff which they sell IS actually good, click on the link. Rigging Only's 1x19 stainless wire is type 316 for standing rigging and can be used with swage fittings and mechanical wire terminals
Ditto for an abridged explanation on "upsizing". A topic which I can extapolate on further, if someone's curious, & or in need of an explanation on why doing it isn't as simple, or wise, as one might initially think.

PS: If you want the ultimate in eminently reusable & strong, rigging end fittings, just get some old fashioned cast locks. And all you'll need anytime you want to re-rig, is; a small hand torch, some flux, a pair of pliers, & a bit of lead. Plus, as best I understand things, they're not nearly so finicky in terms of having the right size rigging wire, down to a fraction of a millimeter.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:24   #42
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

Well I like testing stuff so I'll buy a roll of the most suitable size for suitable mechanical fittings for the boat, and I'll have enough left over on the roll for any emergencies, and also carry what's replaced as spares.

I doubt very much that a company that supplies aircraft and military grade selections, will tolerate unsuitable wire on their shelves (penalties for doing so are very serious, including considerable fines, loss of approved supplier status, and even jail time). Especially when they do label it as "1 X 19 is a non-flexible strand of nineteen wires widely used as standing rigging on sail boats".

I trust them far more than any Company associated with boating, frankly, as over the years I have seen far too many live down to a very low standard, at the highest of prices. Alongside that, I have a lot of experience in import/export and wholesale/retail with my own business, and have personally seen far too much of what actually goes on in product sourcing from overseas suppliers (appalling stuff that feeds into the wholesale chain, and this is a BUYER problem, not a MANUFACTURER problem, the manufacturers simply produce what they are paid to produce - you would not believe how much stuff has labels indicating standards compliance certification, that are false, or fraudulently acquired by submitting compliant products for testing as if they are their own - it isn't just VW that are committing serious fraud because they don't have the engineering competence, expertise, or integrity, to produce products that comply).

No, I do not support people who play those games any more. Yes, I will verify prior to purchase, with samples.

If those samples are up to my (high) standards, then we will see how that wire performs in the Real World[tm], where I will keep a very close eye on it, as well as the fittings.
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Old 08-01-2016, 11:25   #43
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

Thank you to everyone for a great discourse. You've submitted tons of first hand experiences and years of knowledge. I will be pulling the mast and replacing the rig. There's no way around it. If it did come down, since I can carry up to 280 gallons of diesel in the integral tanks, I could still motor home (Allowing that no one was killed, the boat wasn't holed, or some other catastrophe occurred with a de-masting).

The bronze turnbuckles and chainplates were all forged from a foundry in Port Townsend. Good stuff indeed.

Would be neat to open a few of the swages up and see what condition the wire is in. I doubt I'll do it, but you never know.

I've got a few 3-4 months before I can make it back down to Mexico to visit Tranquillity. For $100, I can have the crane pull the stick and check all the tangs, do some paint repair, fit on a new windex and VHF antennae, etc. Most importantly, I'll be at ease at sea when looking up.

Thanks everyone!
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Old 08-01-2016, 11:50   #44
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

Good decision.

$100 for the crane and all that checking? I removed my mast on Wednesday the 6th. The crane and staff at Everett Marina showed up for $90. And if it took more than 30 minutes it will work out to $180. My rigger (Bob Doyle) had the boat prepared for the task, but even then it likely will be an hour billing by the time the crane got set and the mast was loaded on the dolly and moved to the yard.

Even so, it is worth every penny. Most of my rigging appears to be from the 1974 era. The wood spreaders are spongy at the mast fitting. The stay lengths are uneven and the turnbuckles are set different to lengths ( I would have expected that the lower turnbuckles would have been tightened to nearly the same length ). Well all this will be addressed as I am replacing all fittings, wire, and pins.

As SF Bay Dude states "I'll be at ease at sea when looking up." I too will be happy knowing that which can fall on my head is sound and ready for the sea.

John
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Old 08-01-2016, 12:38   #45
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Re: Still Standing - To Rig or Not To Rig

SF,
It really depends upon your intended use. If you have done a thorough inspection of the wire and swage fittings(dye test) and intend to daysail in protected local waters in moderate or less conditions, your rigging is probably O.K. After 6 months of day sailing, I would re-inspect your entire rigging and re-evaluate its "apparent" condition. However, if you intend to sail offshore or sail your boat hard, replace everything with new immediately. And, while your stick is down, I would pull, inspect and rebed all chainplates. In any event, the most you should expect from your "new" boat with this caveat before a re-rig is one year. It might give you a breather from this considerable expense while you replace other less costly items on your unending and continually growing list. Good luck and safe sailing.
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