Help With Sail Cloth Choices

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Is DYS a reinforced dacron, or a proper laminated Cloth?

BTW,among laminates, main difference is whether the exotic fibers are individually laid out, or simply intertwined...

Style: DYS® 38 Plus, 2,0 mil, Weight: 11,7 oz

DYS®
DIMENSION-POLYANT developed with the styles of the DYS® Offshore Technology a range of Ultra-PE sandwich laminates exhibiting easy handling and excellent durability. The Ultra-PE base is encapsulated by film on which a taffeta is laminated.
This rugged laminate line has proven its value in performance cruising sails. DYS®X range is the 4th generation of this performance laminate line. Specially developed finishing techniques minimize the chance of mildew growth.

Features of DYS®
- High Tenacity, High Modules fibres – Polyester and Ultra-PE
- Tight Weave
- Double sided UVM® coating

Productinfo (PDF Document 695 KB)

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

So Dimension-Polyant Lite Skin might be the best way to go for everything but storm sails, and those are probably best made from Marblehead.

DP Lite Skin is a racing sail cloth, why would you recommend this for a cruising sail?

Pete

[islandplanet]

One thing to keep in mind as a generality.... The benefits of high tech cloth are more apparent in the larger boats. It's much harder to justify an exotic cloth on a 33'er whereas on larger boats Dacron simply isn't practical because it gets ridiculously heavy. Hoisting an 11 or 12oz main with a twin ply leech and full battens is no fun. I've turned down projects where someone wanted Dacron and I knew it was just a bad idea.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

One thing to keep in mind as a generality.... The benefits of high tech cloth are more apparent in the larger boats. It's much harder to justify an exotic cloth on a 33'er whereas on larger boats Dacron simply isn't practical because it gets ridiculously heavy. Hoisting an 11 or 12oz main with a twin ply leech and full battens is no fun. I've turned down projects where someone wanted Dacron and I knew it was just a bad idea.

totally agree
On nauta54 main is (guess) in the range of 60# for say 650sqft... a pita for 2 persons.

Indeed, for that very reason, and since it'd be less prone to stress (full batten) and plyes.... I plan for: exotic laminated main, and fractional dacron headsails (cutter).

Only for a light Genoa 100% I'd consider again the luxury of laminated sails. Very hypothetically so

[Stumble]

The reason for exotic materials is pretty simple. They weigh less (the mainsail for A^3 were ghee 100lbs vs 250 for a 3dl the same size, and probably 500 for Dacron), stretch less, last longer, and are more predictable. The downside of course is up front cost.

[hellosailor]

"DYS®X range is the 4th generation of this performance laminate line."
Would it be cruel to suggest that means "We found out, we weren't really doing it the best way, the last three times we did it." ?


Racing is a rich man's sport.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"DYS®X range is the 4th generation of this performance laminate line."
Would it be cruel to suggest that means "We found out, we weren't really doing it the best way, the last three times we did it." ?
Racing is a rich man's sport.

Well it delaminated badly in tropical heat, just replaced a 86sqm main on a 53ft catamaran which was unused for a long time inside a leisure furl. if the material hadn't delaminated the sail would be fine. Same goes with DC, which is now replaced by DC-X..
The American made laminates like CX / SXI seem to fair better.

[zstine]

I'm about to buy a cruising genoa for an old Tartan 41 and am down to 2 lofts. One loft is offering Marblehead, which I am familiar with and is good stuff. It is also cheaper that the other loft, but I like the second loft better. They quoted Dimension Polyant C-breeze (a hundred $ more) and AP-blade (many hundreds $ more). The AP blade has a UV coating and, they claim, will out last marblehead and is comparable in strength/tenacity. I'm having a hard time finding technical info on Dimension-Polyant cloth as their web page 'specs' are just salesman fluff... no numbers, no test results.
Anyone experienced with both Marblehead and DP woven products. Is DP C-breeze comparable to marblehead and AP blade actually better?.. and when I say "better", same strength, same low stretch but more durable, at least with UV.. I can't really afford the AP-blade, so I guess it is really down to C-breeze vs Marblehead. opinions?
thanks

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by zstine

I'm about to buy a cruising genoa for an old Tartan 41 and am down to 2 lofts. One loft is offering Marblehead, which I am familiar with and is good stuff. It is also cheaper that the other loft, but I like the second loft better. They quoted Dimension Polyant C-breeze (a hundred $ more) and AP-blade (many hundreds $ more). The AP blade has a UV coating and, they claim, will out last marblehead and is comparable in strength/tenacity. I'm having a hard time finding technical info on Dimension-Polyant cloth as their web page 'specs' are just salesman fluff... no numbers, no test results.
Anyone experienced with both Marblehead and DP woven products. Is DP C-breeze comparable to marblehead and AP blade actually better?.. and when I say "better", same strength, same low stretch but more durable, at least with UV.. I can't really afford the AP-blade, so I guess it is really down to C-breeze vs Marblehead. opinions?
thanks

Dimension Polyant describes C-Breeze as a general purpose economical cloth. Marblehead is a better choice for cruising. One thing I really like about Marblehead is the UV resistance of the warp fibers as they're fairly large. I find some lofts try to make a big deal out of offering DP's lower end materials. Arguably DP makes some of the best sailcloth. I love their ProRadial as an example. But their lower end offerings really aren't anything all that special and should be compared to the lower end materials offered by Challenge and Bainbridge.
It's sort of like a car salesman telling you to buy a Chevy Malibu on account of what a great performing car the Corvette Z6 is. Might be same manufacturer but totally different product.
And as for Marblehead, we've had customers circumnavigate with it and do some other long distance cruises quite successfully.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Dimension Polyant describes C-Breeze as a general purpose economical cloth. Marblehead is a better choice for cruising. One thing I really like about Marblehead is the UV resistance of the warp fibers as they're fairly large. I find some lofts try to make a big deal out of offering DP's lower end materials. Arguably DP makes some of the best sailcloth. I love their ProRadial as an example. But their lower end offerings really aren't anything all that special and should be compared to the lower end materials offered by Challenge and Bainbridge.
It's sort of like a car salesman telling you to buy a Chevy Malibu on account of what a great performing car the Corvette Z6 is. Might be same manufacturer but totally different product.
And as for Marblehead, we've had customers circumnavigate with it and do some other long distance cruises quite successfully.

Sorry IP you are incorrect. C-Breeze is 100% high tenacity polyester and in the middle of DP's dacron range, low end challenge is not high tenacity so you cannot make that comparison. Actually the only difference between C-breeze and DP's premium dacron is the coating, otherwise they are identical. Secondly Marblehead is one of the lowest performing dacron's in terms of strength loss due to UV damage, much lower than C-Breeze.

[islandplanet]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

Sorry IP you are incorrect. C-Breeze is 100% high tenacity polyester and in the middle of DP's dacron range, low end challenge is not high tenacity so you cannot make that comparison. Actually the only difference between C-breeze and DP's premium dacron is the coating, otherwise they are identical. Secondly Marblehead is one of the lowest performing dacron's in terms of strength loss due to UV damage, much lower than C-Breeze.

Where are you getting your data from Kestrahl? My DP catalog doesn't have any real data and I've never seen them put out the kind of charts that Challenge does. Our experience with Marblehead in real life as opposed to lab tests has been quite positive. In fact I had a client with a 48' cruising cat that had excellent results over about 18,000 miles with Marblehead. I actually recommended that he not go with any crosscut woven for that project but it worked out better than I expected.

Not all high tenacity threads are created equal either. If they were, it would make our jobs easier.

[CAELESTIS]

Just ordered a DP Hydranet radial cut genoa, 130, for my Wauquiez 49. We are using the 393 weight. I looked at DP lite skin, but was wanting a white sail. I already have racing carbons. The radial fabric looks like a superior design than the crosscut version.

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by islandplanet

Where are you getting your data from Kestrahl? My DP catalog doesn't have any real data and I've never seen them put out the kind of charts that Challenge does. Our experience with Marblehead in real life as opposed to lab tests has been quite positive. In fact I had a client with a 48' cruising cat that had excellent results over about 18,000 miles with Marblehead. I actually recommended that he not go with any crosscut woven for that project but it worked out better than I expected.

Not all high tenacity threads are created equal either. If they were, it would make our jobs easier.

From discussing with DP Germany and testing dacron, the dp sample cards have the graphs. Nothing beats the old hood dacron

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kestrahl

From discussing with DP Germany and testing dacron, the dp sample cards have the graphs. Nothing beats the old hood dacron

Peter Sanders a well respected sail maker in the UK also agrees that C-Breeze is a high tenacity fabric. Below is an interesting video of a presentation he gave a couple of years ago (2013) . The discussion on different Dacron fabrics starts about 49 minutes in and follows with laminates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjJzNf4sioA

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Peter Sanders a well respected sail maker in the UK also agrees that C-Breeze is a high tenacity fabric. Below is an interesting video of a presentation he gave a couple of years ago (2013) . The discussion on different Dacron fabrics starts about 49 minutes in and follows with laminates.

Thanks Pete7, this looks like it's worth taking a look at.