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Old 18-07-2011, 05:47   #121
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
This thread proves once again that CF members will defend the system they have with a relentless commitment and will never give in no matter how much evidence is brought forward that shows otherwise.

A child can understand that a bigger diameter mast of an in-mast system is no good except dead downwind; that the extra weight is no good ever and that this gets worse in comparison with slab reefing when you actually reef the sail... weight stays up with in-mast while it comes down with slab reefing.

These arguments are enough proof that in-mast is not better than slab reefing (it's disputably easier but not better).

But now we get the vertical battens... oh my, an owner writes here that he notices a significant speed improvement with these. This proves that doing away with battens and roach is actually bad and all those with in-mast without battens are missing a significant (very noticeable) speed factor. Chew on that for a while... "we slab reefers" drink the Cuba Libre's at anchor while "you in-masters" are still pushing buttons to make that sail move in/out of the mast while rounding up to the wind to prevent jamming.

Also, assuming we have normal wind which flows horizontal across the sails, one can successfully argue that the big diameter mast of an in-mast system disturbs the airflow in such a big manner that it doesn't matter anymore that every batten also disturbs that flow because they are mounted the wrong way.



ciao!
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Nick, you gotta relax and open up your mind. You're the one relentlessly defending a system. Of course a traditional main with slab reefing, full battens and a nice big roach are faster, more efficient, and more aerodynamic. If furling mains were faster/more powerful than traditional mains you'd see them on racers. I simply said that the fuling main with vertical battens performs better than one without. Is it as good as a full battened trad main? Of course not, that is one of the compromises of an in-mast furling. But I'll take the ease of in-mast any day ofthe week. Unless I happen to win the lottery, then I'll happily sail a traditional main on a nice new catarmaran.

As for the extra weight aloft, jamming, capsize/pitch-poling (hahaha), at some point you have to trust the designer. My boat, like most modern boats, was designed with in-mast furling with traditional as an option. It wasn't some afterthought.

Pushing buttons? Hahaha, another good one, but aren't you the only one pushing buttons?

Frank

EDIT: OPPS, didn't realize this was a 9 page pissing match about theory, high performance sailing, and doomsday sailing conditions. Please disregard my posts and carry on!
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Old 18-07-2011, 07:39   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
...Chew on that for a while... "we slab reefers" drink the Cuba Libre's at anchor while "you in-masters" are still pushing buttons to make that sail move in/out of the mast....
Reminded me of this challenge I proposed over HERE

"Here's a challenge,
La Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar watching you put away your vessel for the day."

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/the-ketch-rigged-cat-13937-2.html#post171683

...more on my roller furling mainsail NOT attached to the mast...
I wouldn’t have to uncover any sails, nor recover them when I returned to port. And I would be less concerned with reefing by myself if the wind were to really come up. If I were short-handed at sea, I would have many of the benefits of a ketch rig, without the necessity of slab reefing the main and mizzen sails of the traditional ketch rig.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than a beach cat. Try hoisting a full batten mainsail on a 65 footer by yourself, or even a 40 footer. Most folks over 50 will have second thoughts, or will just unfurl the jib and forget about hoisting the MAINsail.

I'm 68 and I could sail this 65 foot cat by myself with this aft mast rig. And with the balance and low power afforded by the smaller 'mainstaysail' I could sail this vessel right off the mooring or maybe right off a side-to-dock slip


OK, I've got my flame suit on
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Old 18-07-2011, 08:28   #123
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Seems to me like an argument over automatic vs a stick-shift.
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Old 18-07-2011, 09:34   #124
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Seems to me like an argument over automatic vs a stick-shift.
Yep - and I drive cars with manual transmissions.
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Old 18-07-2011, 09:41   #125
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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That ought to turn up the heat!
Get the pop corn out and pull up a sand bag, I will be home from the office in 90 minutes

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Old 18-07-2011, 13:44   #126
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post
Nick, you gotta relax and open up your mind. You're the one relentlessly defending a system.
Me? Would I ever do such a thing?!

Quote:
Of course a traditional main with slab reefing, full battens and a nice big roach are faster, more efficient, and more aerodynamic.
You forgot lighter up the mast where it counts

Quote:
If furling mains were faster/more powerful than traditional mains you'd see them on racers.
Exactly ! But you will find quotes from in-masters in this thread that say their main is just as fast

Quote:
I simply said that the fuling main with vertical battens performs better than one without.
Yes, thank you for that because it allowed me to prove that in-mast without battens is slower than a real man's main.

Quote:
As for the extra weight aloft, jamming, capsize/pitch-poling (hahaha), at some point you have to trust the designer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerWaters
Mama, can I trust the government?
hahaha, you never pitch-poled with that in-mast main yet?

Quote:
My boat, like most modern boats, was designed with in-mast furling with traditional as an option. It wasn't some afterthought.
ohhhh, ask the designer to joins us here

Quote:
Pushing buttons? Hahaha, another good one, but aren't you the only one pushing buttons?


ciao!
Nick.
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Old 18-07-2011, 14:51   #127
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

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In most all of this talk about furling mainsails I saw very few references to some other problems that can occur with too much mainsail deployed, particularly when sailing downwind in big conditions.[/COLOR]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
Why would anyone have any mainsail up at all downwind in "big conditions"?
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Old 18-07-2011, 15:09   #128
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

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Why would anyone have any mainsail up at all downwind in "big conditions"?
You have it backwards? In big conditions I'd only have a reefed main up. No headsail at all, or a very small one perhaps. Sailing on headsail alone is never a good idea...except possibly in drifting conditions. Shall I list the reasons?
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Old 18-07-2011, 15:13   #129
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

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You have it backwards? In big conditions I'd only have a reefed main up. No headsail at all, or a very small one perhaps. Sailing on headsail alone is never a good idea...except possibly in drifting conditions. Shall I list the reasons?
Please

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Old 18-07-2011, 15:23   #130
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

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Why would anyone have any mainsail up at all downwind in "big conditions"?

Balance.

That is why storm trysails and storm jibs are used in conjunction.
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Old 18-07-2011, 15:43   #131
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Re: Reducing Mainsail Area Downwind

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You have it backwards? In big conditions I'd only have a reefed main up .... Shall I list the reasons?
1 - For safety, like collision avoidance, MOB, or big fish on, having only a headsail up severely limits your maneuverability options. It may be difficult or impossible to head up.

2 - In rough conditions the mast may not be well supported. The main can provide a stiffening load on the mast.

3 - If it's a furling headsail furling the sail may be difficult. If it's not a furling headsail worsening conditions will require a headsail change which is far more difficult than another reef in the main.

4 - Partially furled headsails, in big conditions, experience huge loads on their foot and leech tapes. You will not be able to easily douse or furl a blown headsail.

5 - Most boats don't trim or balance well under headsail only. It was never intended to be done.

6 - One risks looking like a Sunday Sailor.

7 - It just looks wrong.

Other CF'ers might be able to add more reasons...
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Old 18-07-2011, 18:07   #132
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Well, the mainsail only approach has it's control issues too. In a strong blow with main alone the weather helm may be be too much to even steer the boat. I have had a boat (true cutter rig) that had this problem. Literally, on a reach, main alone, the boat would not turn down wind. The rudder would stall to the point of creating a bunch of turbulance etc aft and the boat would not turn. In these wx conditions my preference is the headsail.... or with deeply reefed main. I knew someone that actually broke a steering cable once with the same issue. (actually the cable pulled out of double clamps as I remember... ) But, every boat is different.... I guess it depends on if you are in a racing fleet or miles away from nowhere...
Does this mean that the old timers that sailed around the world without todays fancy toys using double wing on wing headsails/headstays were wrong?
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Old 18-07-2011, 18:14   #133
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

Things I have learned about the internet are:
* People tend to lean toward what they currently have as "the best".
* It's OK. You get a lot of good input that way.
* Once you glean all the opinions, some common threads stand out.
* That's the best knowledge to be gained.
It's all good!
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Old 18-07-2011, 18:28   #134
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Re: Furling Mainsail or Not ?

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Well, the mainsail only approach has it's control issues too. In a strong blow with main alone the weather helm may be be too much to even steer the boat. ... Does this mean that the old timers that sailed around the world without todays fancy toys using double wing on wing headsails/headstays were wrong?
If you can't turn down, or have excessive weather helm, then I'd say you have too much sail up.

The wing-on-wing sailors would not have that rig up in a big blow. And that only applies to problems 5, 6, and 7.

I had assumed modern sloop rigs on modern hulls. There are certainly exceptions.

My main objection when I see goofballs sailing around on just a genoa is the safety problem, especially in an area with other traffic. It's irresponsible to not be able to maneuver properly and promptly to comply with the COLREGS. Of course they may have a full crew to handle the situation, but having just the genoa out rather implies being shorthanded and barely able to even cope with that. No?

You'll never see my headsail out without the main.
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Old 18-07-2011, 18:33   #135
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Bit of thread drift. But let me say that comments on headsail only are nonsense. For example in big seas running Downwind with headsail only is very useful on some boats

Learn to use you sails singly and together. All have useful advantages in certain circumstances

As to Colregs , what nonsense. Given what you said we'd never use spinakers The colregs recognise that sailing vessels are hampered hence their priority over motor

Dave
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