Furling Mainsail or Not ?

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I'll take any boat I can afford that has a decent engine! Beneteau or Ingrid 38! in mast or Gaff! manson or Danforth! *sigh

not to change the subject Salty, but I advertised a ChoyLee 31 Offshore a month or so ago for free... the person that owned it abandoned it, tyed to the dock in front of me here at the marina..They ran a lien sale on the boat and nobody came..
My son came down, they signed over the boat to him for free, and we took it for a sail that afternoon.....
he's doing some up-grades and for less than 5k, he,ll be in the open water headed for Mexico and points beyond........
and you wont find much beter boat for bluewater cruising,

[SaltyMonkey]

are you serious or pulling my leg Randy? If thats true, I think thats the second boat you came across in the last 6 months - counting a power boats you got a deal on if I am not mistaken? Congrats to your son

Also congrats you didn't sell your Bennie like you mentinoed a while back. Understand you are gonna transpac it in 1-2 years!

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

not to change the subject Salty, but I advertised a ChoyLee 31 Offshore a month or so ago for free... the person that owned it abandoned it, tyed to the dock in front of me here at the marina..They ran a lien sale on the boat and nobody came..
My son came down, they signed over the boat to him for free, and we took it for a sail that afternoon.....
he's doing some up-grades and for less than 5k, he,ll be in the open water headed for Mexico and points beyond........
and you wont find much beter boat for bluewater cruising,

Hey, really well done, mates. Lovely story... hope that he enjoys the boat as much as you obviously enjoy the deal!

Cheers,

Jim

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

are you serious or pulling my leg Randy? If thats true, I think thats the second boat you came across in the last 6 months - counting a power boats you got a deal on if I am not mistaken? Congrats to your son

Also congrats you didn't sell your Bennie like you mentinoed a while back. Understand you are gonna transpac it in 1-2 years!

Yes , yes and Yes..............the Choy Lee was listed on CF in the classified section....... just gota keep your ears and eyes open and it will drop in your lap.........

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I think Wagner vs Debussy has some clearer boundaries.

Wagner vs Mahler hmmmm

wait...is this thread drift?

Im sort of worn out. I'll take any boat I can afford that has a decent engine! Beneteau or Ingrid 38! in mast or Gaff! manson or Danforth! *sigh

You can't compare Debussy and Wagner. Debussy a (very charming) lightweight.

And don't torture yourself over choosing a boat. It's really like choosing a puppy. You look until one of them looks into yourveyes and you just know - that one's mine.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Hmm, nope disagree

Have a look at this photo, you can see the car and that the outhaul applies a considerable downward force to the main.

Yes my friend but your boom is horizontal now, isn't it? As soon as you stick the end of the boom up in the sky, the leech will slacken and the outhaul will pull the sail all the way onto the boom with the leech still flapping in the wind like a flag.

The only way to keep the leech tight in that scenario, is by shortening it

ciao!
Nick.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes my friend but your boom is horizontal now, isn't it? As soon as you stick the end of the boom up in the sky, the leech will slacken and the outhaul will pull the sail all the way onto the boom with the leech still flapping in the wind like a flag.

The only way to keep the leech tight in that scenario, is by shortening it

ciao!
Nick.

Honestly I don't understand the confusion. You can trim the boom up or down on any point of sail at any time, just like any other rig, unless you are actively furling at the moment. If you want a flatter sail you trim the boom down and the outhaul tight. For a baggier shape you boom up and loosen the outhaul. There is no magical superior sail shape that cannot be obtained on a furler, especially given modern options for furling battens...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by minaret

Honestly I don't understand the confusion. You can trim the boom up or down on any point of sail at any time, just like any other rig, unless you are actively furling at the moment. If you want a flatter sail you trim the boom down and the outhaul tight. For a baggier shape you boom up and loosen the outhaul.

Exactly, I agree with all that, but:

There is no magical superior sail shape that cannot be obtained on a furler, especially given modern options for furling battens...

that is where you go wrong because as you just wrote above, you can't lift boom up and maintain a flat sail simultaneously. Read back why it's important (clearance between boom and wave during heavy weather).

In a previous post I explained how that is achieved with slab reefing (reef cringle positions in leech higher than in luff).

ciao!
Nick.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Exactly, I agree with all that, but:



that is where you go wrong because as you just wrote above, you can't lift boom up and maintain a flat sail simultaneously. Read back why it's important (clearance between boom and wave during heavy weather).

In a previous post I explained how that is achieved with slab reefing (reef cringle positions in leech higher than in luff).

ciao!
Nick.

All in mast furling mainsails are cut with a rise in the foot, both to acheive exactly the effect you mention, and to prevent the boltrope in the foot from creating a bulge in the furled sail when furling. All of this is mentioned in the manual that came with my furler.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay guys, I give up... in-mast furling can do anything, it's the best thing ever. Next time you meet a sailmaker, ask him about this stuff; may be he can explain it better than I, because y'all either got no clue what I mean or you're all trolling me

ciao!
Nick.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Read back why it's important (clearance between boom and wave during heavy weather).

OK. But this is boat/design/sailing area specific. I mean: in some configurations it is a no-issue.

Plus, while the sail is furled (reefed) it is the boom, not the sail, that catches the wave - in such a case the in-mast is BETTER OFF as the sail is in the mast, while with slabs it is hanging in a slab at the boom's end - exactly where it can catch a lot of green water.

BTW, IMHO, there is no way the perfect shape can be obtained with an in-mast furling unit.

BTW, IMHO, I do not see any reason why the shape would have to be perfect, unless the boat is competitively raced.

Cheers,
b.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay guys, I give up... in-mast furling can do anything, it's the best thing ever. Next time you meet a sailmaker, ask him about this stuff; may be he can explain it better than I, because y'all either got no clue what I mean or you're all trolling me

ciao!
Nick.

No nick your just wrong that's all

Dave

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No nick your just wrong that's all Dave

I hear what Nick is saying and no we are not trolling you Nick. I very much doubt we will ever get the boom anywhere near the water level and if we do as Barnakiel says it won't have any sail on it, certainly not that will get wet

I agree an inmast sail isn't perfect but then it doesn't have to be. It's not the big driver on our masthead rig, the genoa is. I see it as a sail to provide some drive but more importantly balance the boat.

If we replaced it with slab reefing the benefits are so small that it would be cost prohibitive and we would then loose the ability to easily reef, something I am not going to give up for a fraction of a knot in some wind strengths.

An interesting debate, with some folk for and some against. That's fine by me, it would be very dull if we all sailed identical yachts.

Pete

[neilpride]

In Mast Furling Benefits:---------
1.The ability to open or close the mainsail from the cockpit.
2.The ability to reef the sail from the cockpit.
3.The ability to adjust the sail from diferents wind range conditions like a jib.

In Mast Furling Disadvantages:----

1.More weight along the spar section...
2. Complex system prone in some cases to jam in the worst moment.So in this case the benefits are gone cuz in any case you need to go forward in deck in dangerous conditions to keep the flogging in control or risk to loose the mainsail.
3.Not a good sail shape in any way.
4.In a dismasting scenario the chances to loose the sail with the rig are greater.
5. More moving parts like drums , bearings, ropes, sheaves etc,,, mean more maintenance.

To be honest , is made and designed for lazy people or old people.
The main benefit is like the convenience to be in the cockpit , like many features in many new boats, sails are horse power in a sailboat, take your conclusion.
Be in 30to40 knts of wind in the midle of nowhere with a piece of sail flogging is a no no for me.

Many good conventional mainsails are hoisted and reefed from the cockpit without fear to jam the mainsail in the spar.

Cheers.

[Hud3]

I've read the negative comments in this thread, and wonder if the posters are mostly talking theory, or have they personally experienced all the problems they outline.

We put quite a few miles on our Charleston Spar in-mast mainsail furling system in all sorts of conditions, including a number of offshore passages with winds anywhere from Force 7 up to Force 9. In the seven years we owned the boat, we never had a single problem with the system--it performed flawlessly. It was a piece of cake for the helmsman alone to adjust the amount of sail reefed, safely and comfortably from the cockpit. A furling system allows an infinite number of "reefing points" rather than the discrete two or perhaps three on non-furlers. It's so easy to do, we didn't hesitate to make small changes to optimize heel and balance the helm to maintain boatspeed and comfort level aboard. Our boat sailed best at a maximum 15 degree heel, and we were able to achieve that with no problems in all conditions. The sail was loose-footed, so we could achieve a very nice sail shape, and had absolutely no problem flattening the sail when conditions called for it with the help of a solid boom vang. We typically averaged at least 80% of our theoretical hullspeed on our offshore passages, so I can't complain about performance.

I just can't understand where some of the more vociferous naysayers are coming from.