Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-08-2015, 09:33   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Boat: Prout 50 Quasar 1980
Posts: 136
Send a message via Skype™ to tolly
Crosscut vs radial cut

What are the known pros and cons with crosscut compared to radial cut cruising sails?
Main, stay and genoa.
Any difference if long time ocean cruising?
__________________

__________________
tolly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 00:06   #2
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Tri-radial are more expensive on the front end becaus they take a lot more labor to build. In exchange if they are built well they hold their shape much better, and for far longer than a crosscut. Because the weave and weight of the cloth is selected to match the loads of the sail.
__________________

__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 00:51   #3
Registered User
 
ozskipper's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NSW Australia
Boat: Traditional 30
Posts: 1,981
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

You will "usually" find tri radials etc on racing boats, especially on those who use exotic materials.
For a cruiser, cross cut is fine imho. There a lot of other goodies you can buy with the difference in the price.
__________________
Cheers
Oz
...............
ozskipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 08:05   #4
Registered User
 
Kestrahl's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Malaysia
Boat: Laurie Davidson 35
Posts: 262
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

If the fabric is dacron it is normally cross-cut
Radial cut dacron doesn't give any significant advantage in shape holding or performance despite what the marketing tells you. It is still dacron after all and most the the primary loads running from head to clew are still taken care of in a cross-cut layout.
laminated fabrics and hydra-net are more suited to radial cut.
__________________
Kestrahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 11:27   #5
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cat Island, Bahamas
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 catamaran
Posts: 132
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

From Challenge Sailcloth on their new Warp Drive line of warp dacrons.
Others like Dimension Polyant Sailcloth and Contender Sailcloth also offer their versions.


For years, the sailing industry has struggled to produce a strong medium to heavy weight woven cloth solution for a Tri-Radial sail. Challenge Sailcloth invented, patented and produced the solution.

Warp-Drive is made using Challenge's patented process of weaving straight warp yarns in heavy fabrics. The fill yarns take the crimp during the weaving process and encapsulate the warp yarns.

Sailmakers then cut the cloth and align the strength of the warp yarn with the load direction of the sail. Warp-Drive™ Race fabrics have zero-crimp warp yarns which give the performance of a laminate with the durability of a woven.

Performance of a Laminate with the Durability of a Woven

Laminate fabrics are prone to mildew which erode the material binding the fibers within the film together. Warp-Drive is a polyester based woven construction, which will not mildew. Challenge Sailcloth uses high tenacity yarns.

Challenge Sailcloth has created two lines of Warp-Drive™ Fabric: Race & Cruise. The cruise line is woven using the same process as Warp-Drive™ Race, but uses larger fill yarns on the surface area of the cloth to increase durability and UV resistance from degradation. The cruise line is perfect for the long range sailor and those sailing in the tropics.
__________________
davecalvert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 12:02   #6
Registered User
 
Kestrahl's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Malaysia
Boat: Laurie Davidson 35
Posts: 262
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

That is good marketing, but have you seen Warp drive after some use, it goes soft and stretchy. It is popular however with cruisers, probably more from a aesthetics standpoint than a performance advantage. If you look at any racing classes i.e. etchells using dacron they are all cross-cut bodies using fabrics like Square, SF and Polypreg, not any of the "radial" dacrons.
__________________
Kestrahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-08-2015, 22:00   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cruising, now in USVIs
Boat: Taswell 43
Posts: 285
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

With our in-mast furling MS bagginess became an issue. After recutting an existing crosscut Dacron sail, and then having a new(Dacron) sail made...neither of which worked or lasted like we had hoped, we had a triradial made with a synthetic. It was a little more costly (not that much more!) but has worked perefectly and has held its shape very well. It's on its 5th season this fall-and still acts and feels like new. Very much worth the small added expense, and when we replace the H/S in a year or 2, it will also be a triradial cut synthetic!
__________________
sailcrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 10:41   #8
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cat Island, Bahamas
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 catamaran
Posts: 132
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

There are more options for performance dacrons in the lighter weights. The firm dacrons used on these small race boats will not last long on a heavy cruising boat where a high cloth weight and softer "hand" is required. The higher performance race boats only use dacron if the class rules restricts the use of laminates. I agree, in small to mid size cruising boats, a cross cut sail with premium dacron can perform and last well. When the loads increase, as in larger boats, cross cut dacron may not be up to the job.
Triradial cut laminated sail cloths do a great job of maintaining the sail's designed shape. With a radial cut, much better fiber alignment can be achieved. Some drawbacks we have found with laminates in cruising sails is some sailmakers under spec the material or weights. If a laminate cloth is over loaded, the warp fibers elongate, breaking the bond with the internal Mylar film, causing de lamination. Laminates with single or double taffeta (cruising laminates) can also experience mildew between inner layers.
To avoid the mildew and other laminate issues, we have been offering the woven warp products like the warp dacrons and woven warp cloths with Dyneema fibers inserted like, Hydra Net and Fibercon Pro Hybrid.
It is true even these will stretch in time, especially with high loads of multihulls or larger monohulls, but cloth life will be good and "performance life" will be better than same weight cross cut dacron sails.
__________________
davecalvert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2015, 13:04   #9
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Tolly,

I missed this the first time, but on a 50' boat you really may want to look into some cruising laminates. The weight savings alone can be substantial, prices aren't nearly as high as they used to be, and the shape holding is far superior. Durability also seems to be getting far better. A local J-35 has a racing 3Di from North with a medium taffeta that is still in racing shape at its 7th birthday.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 12:48   #10
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,382
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Quote:
Challenge Sailcloth has created two lines of Warp-Drive™ Fabric: Race & Cruise. The cruise line is woven using the same process as Warp-Drive™ Race, but uses larger fill yarns on the surface area of the cloth to increase durability and UV resistance from degradation. The cruise line is perfect for the long range sailor and those sailing in the tropics.
I

I have seen some writing about Challenger Warp-Drive which are probably talking about the "Race" version which has smaller fill threads and is more susceptible to UV. Is UK statement referring to a "High mass fiber weave for the Carribean" possibly referring to the "cruise" version.

These two statements may seem to be at odds with each other, but I think both statements have good points.


The official site of UK Sailmakers Lofts Worldwide
"Similar to our tightly woven, super-high count and fine-denier yarn high aspect fill-oriented cloth, the fine denier fill yarns of Warp-Drive do not have the same resilience to UV exposure that a well-balanced cloth with large warp yarns does. Because of this, it is not recommended to use Warp-Drive on sailboats headed for full-time sailing in the Caribbean or anywhere else with very high UV exposure. For boats used in these areas, we have a High Mass Fiber Weave line that will last much longer under high UV exposure.
Despite this one drawback, the benefits of Warp-Drive still far outweigh the drawbacks of a fill-oriented sailcloth in a cross-cut sail and also a bi- or tri-radial laminate cloth. Extremely low stretch in the warp direction coupled with a good radial panel layout will make sails that keep their designed shape long after a laminate sail has mildewed completely and the resin has been beaten from a cross-cut sail. The rest of the sailing community can now rejoice; the innovation stand-still they have been experiencing for several decades is ended."

Challenge Warp-Drive Sail Cloth
"Warp is pretty much a marketing play to get you to pay 40% extra for a dacron sail. It's still simply a woven dacron cloth and it will stretch on the bias just like any other (good tight weave) dacron cloth. In no-way will it perform (low stretch) like a laminate cloth.
"There have been numerous attempts to make a woven dacron that is strong in one direction into good sails and they have all failed. Using Pentex fibers (a high modulus dacron) in one direction was all the marketing a rage a while ago. However, ALL woven cloth will stretch on the bias (that is at 45 degrees across the weave) no matter how low stretch the fibers or un-crimped the weave is. This is just a simple fact of the physics of weaving. And this is true if its cross cut or tri-radial. These attemps have tended to produce sails with shorter longivity than regular dacron cross-cut (because they try to use the low stretch in one direction and overload the bias direction).
"If you have gotten 20 years out of a set of dacron cross-cuts sails, that's excellent and I would suggest you do the same again.

Hydranet
"Sail Cloth Choice.
Sail cloth choice is never any easy thing. We have made many sails from dacron, Hydra-Net and Cruise Laminate. The reality is that they all have there uses. It depends what you want to acheive. The age old battle between lifespan, cost and performance has no answer, but depending on what type of sailing you will be doing there is a fabric out there for everyone. Personally i prefer either a good dacron or cruise lam. Hydra-net does not offer enough increase in performance or life in my eyes for the price hike. If you need any more help or some prices to compare, let me know."

-There are many opinions, of course, and it is difficult to sort out the differences between Warp-drive, Hydranet, cruise laminates radial cut and dacron cross cut. Knowing such things as
Number of years of "good shape"
Number of years to "failure"
Ease of repair and maintenance 1-10
East to recut 1-10
Mildew Resistance 1-10
Cost 1-10
It would help tremendously.

-What is the strength of Warp-Drive "race" and "cruise" on the 45 degree bias, as compared to really good dacron?

- To what extent are there forces on the bias with a radial sail which is cut to allow forces to approximate the direction of the warp fibers.

- What are the problems with the "cruise" version. I thought that was not used much at all.

- Also is it true that Dacron Cross Cut sails can be recut while it is impractical to do so with radial sails?

- What is the average longevity of Radial Cut cut sails with Laminates (2 layers of Myler + spectra, vectran etc. My understanding is these sails have problems with mildew, hold shape much better than crosscut dacron, are lighter, rollup tighter, but tend to fail more abruptly. The shape degraded faster than formed or molded sails like 3DL and Fusion M

Thanks.
__________________
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 12:57   #11
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,382
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Warp-Drive™ — Challenge Sailcloth
"Performance of a Laminate with the Durability of a Woven
Laminate fabrics are prone to mildew which erode the material binding the fibers within the film together. Warp-Drive is a polyester based woven construction, which will not mildew. Challenge Sailcloth uses high tenacity yarns.
Challenge Sailcloth has created two lines of Warp-Drive™ Fabric: Race & Cruise. The cruise line is woven using the same process as Warp-Drive™ Race, but uses larger fill yarns on the surface area of the cloth to increase durability and UV resistance from degradation. The cruise line is perfect for the long range sailor and those sailing in the tropics.

-What do those larger fill yarns mean in terms of characteristics and performance. (Fewer warp lines? More crimp on the warp lines? Less tight a weave? Can the dacron still be shrunk to tighten up the weave and help with bias forces?)

It appears that sails are more about materials and cloth than the fabrication, but I am sure there are potholes there too.
__________________
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 16:07   #12
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,382
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Useful.
How to Buy Cruising Sails by Judy Blumhorst | The Curtis Home Website

http://www.cruisingworld.com/gear/be...g-around-world

__________________
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2015, 06:56   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cat Island, Bahamas
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 catamaran
Posts: 132
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

The main objective of triradial cuts, using numerious wedge shaped panels radiating out from the corners, is to improve fiber alignment and reduce bias loads. Of course the warp dacrons suffer from bias stretch but with this cut much less loads are put on the bias.
The Cruise version of the Warp Drive Dacron has the larger fill yarns that take longer to break down with UV exposure. This is a compromise. And there will be more stretch on the warp than the "race" versions but, with triradial cuts, still perform better than equivalent weight cross cut sails.
I agree, the Hydra Net cloths are great for a while but eventually become soft and stretch, changing the sail's designed shape in time.
Modern cruise laminates can be the best solution but, materials must be selected that are more than up to the job. There are often no weight savings using cruise laminates as the double taffeta increase the weight to that of a good Dacron for the same application.
__________________
davecalvert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2015, 08:17   #14
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 9,382
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Thank you Dave.
For an guy who grew up racing, but cruises now, has had a North Marathon 3DL 140% since summer 2003, who fought milldew with Sailkote in 2004 and 2011, now has an area of delamination in the center, but absolutely loves the shapeholding (still good) of the 3DL, and who will do coastal cruising (a little offshore), would like a little more longevity and shape holding, and less mildew, should I consider:
1. Crosscut with Challenge Marblehead/104? 18-20 years
2. Radial with Contender CDX Polyester Laminate? (maybe Sailkote) 10 years
3. Radial North Norlam (maybe Sailkote) 10 years
4. 3DL Marathon North again (Sailkote) 10 years (but I got 12 years)
5. North Marathon 3Di ? (maybe Sailkote) ??? less mold, best shape holding
These are listed with
- costs increasing
- shape holding capacity increasing
- longevity decreasing (generally)
- wovens have less mold/mildew than laminates and shaped/molded
Mildew is dealt with by Sailkote (adds $500 + weight)
So if I want more than 10 years out of a sail, say 16 years, but I am picky about shape and mildew, where on this list should I be?
- #2&3 Really care for the sail and push the limit last 4 years.
- #4 3DL again hoping the newer glues are better and it won't delaminate as soon.
- #1 Crosscut at 1/2 the price and buy another in 8-10 years assuming the woven technology has gotten better. - Am I going to be sailing with a bagged out sail for 5-6 years?
__________________
rgleason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-09-2015, 12:56   #15
Registered User
 
deluxe68's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona/Rhode Island
Boat: Swan 432
Posts: 581
Re: Crosscut vs radial cut

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Thank you Dave.
For an guy who grew up racing, but cruises now, has had a North Marathon 3DL 140% since summer 2003, who fought milldew with Sailkote in 2004 and 2011, now has an area of delamination in the center, but absolutely loves the shapeholding (still good) of the 3DL, and who will do coastal cruising (a little offshore), would like a little more longevity and shape holding, and less mildew, should I consider:
1. Crosscut with Challenge Marblehead/104? 18-20 years
2. Radial with Contender CDX Polyester Laminate? (maybe Sailkote) 10 years
3. Radial North Norlam (maybe Sailkote) 10 years
4. 3DL Marathon North again (Sailkote) 10 years (but I got 12 years)
5. North Marathon 3Di ? (maybe Sailkote) ??? less mold, best shape holding
These are listed with
- costs increasing
- shape holding capacity increasing
- longevity decreasing (generally)
- wovens have less mold/mildew than laminates and shaped/molded
Mildew is dealt with by Sailkote (adds $500 + weight)
So if I want more than 10 years out of a sail, say 16 years, but I am picky about shape and mildew, where on this list should I be?
- #2&3 Really care for the sail and push the limit last 4 years.
- #4 3DL again hoping the newer glues are better and it won't delaminate as soon.
- #1 Crosscut at 1/2 the price and buy another in 8-10 years assuming the woven technology has gotten better. - Am I going to be sailing with a bagged out sail for 5-6 years?
I am also looking at new sails, we currently have a bagged out main and a 95% jib both Dacron. The quote from North sails is $10,800 for Radian NorDac and $15K for NorLam Ultra X. I have been trying to get the North salesman to tell me what cloth they use for the Dacron sails but I have not gotten any answers yet. I have an old reference that indicates they used to use the lower of the 4 grades of Dacron for their cruising sails. There are very few compnies that will tell you exactly what you are getting for your money, I guess they want us to just trust them.
__________________

__________________
deluxe68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cross-Cut vs Tri-Radial? Dockhead Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 26 15-04-2015 14:37
Radial Drive Wheel/Shaft Tolerance rognvald Construction, Maintenance & Refit 14 17-06-2014 17:43
To Cut or Not to Cut - Underseat Cabinets Jetexas Monohull Sailboats 9 25-02-2012 20:06
Harken Radial ST Winches - Comments, Please Weyalan Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 0 28-09-2011 17:51
Measuring a Tri-Radial Spinaker alma Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 22-12-2009 21:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.