World Wide Pump Out?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Guy

How many work? Who the hell maintains these things? Nobody. The self rightous should keep them working. They could get brownie points.

Good slip in, there.

In CA they are funded and maintained by grants from the boaters fund, which the politicians keep trying to raid and slip into the general fund, i.e., their own private honey pot.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, some of the human race is a little more intelligent and civilized than the average ape.

Well, not really. We have developed sanitation technology to enable high density population, while minimizing disease and natural die off. The art of problem solving 101, first lesson, "Any solution mankind can develop to solve a problem, creates at least one more problem."

Again, a cruiser pooping in the open ocean is no real concern. Small harbours without natural flushing or in close proximity to others, problem.

Some wild animals eat their young; doesn't make it OK for humans. Park your boat near mine and $#!+ in the water, I have a portable drill; we'll sea how well you make like a fish.

I can tell you've never been out cruising beyond your lake, because if you had... you'd know there's absolutely no way to know if and when your neighbor pumps their head into the anchorage. So you'd better play it save and stay home, rather than take a chance.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Please, there is a huge difference between human waste going into open ocean, and into small harbours where others anchor and swim.

The trouble is, some without holding tanks (or even with them) are thoughtless enough to discharge in close proximity to others, which could have adverse health effects, as well as simply foul the water others wish to enjoy.

Holding tanks and shore side pump out facilities are a great solution for preventing the fouling of harbours and anchorages where others do not want to see your poop floating by where waters are pristine and there is no municipal discharge.

I've heard many boaters visiting the North Channel of Lake Huron ask if the MSD requirements are enforced.

IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

Some want to leave their fouled home waters to come and foul up all the beautiful freshwater anchorages. Attitude: "Well I don't swim so if I won't likely be fined, I don't give a $#!+. And then they do, directly into the water where children are playing. SHAME!!!!!

If you are frustrated with the disregard for the environment of some municipal treatment facility, address that by contacting the EPA and your local politicians, not by adding your boat poop to clean water in anchorages near other boats.

I didn't notice that any single person on here, advocated discharging black water into coves or near beaches.

But there is a lot of daylight between "coves or near beaches", and "open sea". In many places it is forbidden to discharge from a small recreational vessel 11 miles from shore -- and that's just silly.

I for one always use my holding tank anywhere near where people might be swimming, whether it's required or not.

I must admit, however, that I do not swim, where other boats are anchored, or where there are lots of people. I spent a week in Copenhagen harbor, one of the cleanest urban places you can imagine. One morning, the guy on the next boat came up on deck and took a long whizz right into the harbor water, in broad daylight. My Danish friend told me -- we can't use our marine toilets within sight of land, but we can do anything we want off the deck, and it's an old tradition.

Moral of the story -- if you're swimming near where there are lots of people, don't expect the water to be drinking quality, no matter what the rules about boat discharges are. And as Kenomac said, the water is full of the excrement of all kinds of animals, too -- marine and otherwise. In the runoff from streams as well as what is directly deposited into the water.

Excessive squeamishness is not really in place, in nature. You won't enjoy being out in nature, if you expect it to be absolutely clean.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Some wild animals eat their young; doesn't make it OK for humans. Park your boat near mine and $#!+ in the water, I have a portable drill; we'll sea how well you make like a fish.

And you'd do more damage to the environment than 100 people crapping every day for a year.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The solution to pollution IS dilution. No doubt about it; low concentrations of poop in areas of good flow and/or plenty of volume will make no measurable difference. It is likely the best environmental way to dispose of human waste. But, concentrated poop in areas of low flow/limited volume certainly can and does cause environmental problems.

Poop -- ALL poop is a potential pollutant. Human, animal, fish... concentrate it sufficiently and it will cause damage to the ecosystem.

Thank God -- someone actually applying logic and reason to this question, rather than squeamish emotion.



A good sailing friend of mine is a prominent marine biologist, and in fact was one of the main authors of the HELCOM convention which regulates pollution in the Baltic Sea. What Mike has posted here is exactly what my friend says on the subject.

And this is why you don't discharge in coves or near beaches -- your discharge is concentrated, and might not have a chance to disperse properly before someone swims through it.

But a mile offshore, or even a few cables?

This is ALSO why -- something no regulation as far as I know addresses -- a MACERATOR is more important than any holding tank. Macerated waste is dispersed and broken down far more quickly and readily. I macerate all my waste -- do you? By the time I dump my holding tank, everything has been macerated TWICE. So I never just dump turds in the water -- even in the open ocean.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I didn't notice that any single person on here, advocated discharging black water into coves or near beaches.

But there is a lot of daylight between "coves or near beaches", and "open sea". In many places it is forbidden to discharge from a small recreational vessel 11 miles from shore -- and that's just silly.

I for one always use my holding tank anywhere near where people might be swimming, whether it's required or not.

This seems entirely sensible to me.

I really don't see why this is such a hard topic for some. Ecosystems process waste from all critters, humans being one such critter. Too much waste in volume or concentration can overwhelm these natural systems, so don't dump where this can happen. But dumping in area of good flow is probably the best way to deal with organic waste like human feces.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I didn't notice that any single person on here, advocated discharging black water into coves or near beaches.

Of course not, but lots do it.

Pure stupidity, arrogance, narcissism, self-righteousness, and laziness, all rolled in together.

Look, I know that it is human nature to attempt to justify what one is doing.

It makes us feel better to think we are doing the right thing, or at least that we are not doing anything wrong, or actually what we are doing wrong is OK because...

Like flagrant sinners going to church. Like polluting industries planting token trees.

When one makes a blanket statement that "No discharge zones are dumb.", what can be the other conclusion when these are normally in closed water systems, than the poster believes it is OK to poop in the water wherever they want, including up current of a boat anchored behind them in a closed body of shallow water?

I believe "No discharge zones" are smart, when applied properly.

My home waters (for now) are the Great Lakes.

Likely the largest "No Discharge Zone" body of water anywhere.

The water from Lake Superior flows 2200 miles before being discharged into the ocean. We've all seen it rushing over Niagara Falls. Lots of water. The solution to pollution is dilution right? Well that's lots of dilution. Then why are marine mammals at the end of it treated as toxic waste when they die?

Yes most of this is industrial pollution, but the point is, all of it ends up being concentrated somewhere. Like the fields of plastic floating in the open ocean.

Using pump out stations is not problematic at all.

It is a very civilized way to dispose of human waste.

Except in very rare circumstances, (equipment breakdown or flood) it is piped to a municipal waste treatment facility, before being returned to a natural waterway.

I believe it is better to at least try to avoid overboard discharge, especially in small bodies of water, than to ignore the impact one is having on others.

And please, don't attempt to justify by claiming that animals in nature poop in nature.

Human population density is not natural.

If we lived in this close proximity to so many others without means to dispose human waste, there would be mass disease and die-offs, as there are in nature, when population density becomes higher than nature can naturally support.

As boaters, we should be trying to do everything we possibly can to make the water we enjoy for our recreation cleaner; not attempting to justify how we are fouling it, even by our personal miniscule amount.

Remember the butterfly effect.

One seemingly tiny event can have unthinkable catastrophic impact.

Diseases, unknown to us today, could very well wipe out the human race, because just one person, carrying some freak-mutated bacteria, crapped in the ocean.

And just one of the 5 billion bacteria in that one turd, was ingested by another human being 500 miles away.

Can't happen? It already has. Before there was Typhoid or Cholera, there wasn't.

Fortunately, we figured out how to treat those.

Now we have Clostridium difficile (Cdiff).

Trickier.

What if we can't figure out the next one?

Think about it.

"Oh well, if that can happen, we'll all die anyway", is not the answer.

"Do what we reasonably can to prevent it", is.

No over-board discharge within proclaimed zones is at least an attempt.

Follow it and quit griping about your God-given right to crap where you want.

If nature had not already been altered by human intervention, you would most likely be dead already, and not crapping anywhere.

Zero risk that you would be "the one" after that.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by desodave

Stu - there are pump outs in a number of locations in BC, especially in the Southern Gulf Islands. But there are very few in the Discovery Islands area or north of Campbell River.

Thanks for that Dave, I looked in Waggoners' and was happily surprised. A few right around the corner from me, too.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Of course not, but lots do it.

Pure stupidity, arrogance, narcissism, self-righteousness, and laziness, all rolled in together.

Look, I know that it is human nature to attempt to justify what one is doing.

It makes us feel better to think we are doing the right thing, or at least that we are not doing anything wrong, or actually what we are doing wrong is OK because...

Like flagrant sinners going to church. Like polluting industries planting token trees.

When one makes a blanket statement that "No discharge zones are dumb.", what can be the other conclusion when these are normally in closed water systems, than the poster believes it is OK to poop in the water wherever they want, including up current of a boat anchored behind them in a closed body of shallow water?

I believe "No discharge zones" are smart, when applied properly.

My home waters (for now) are the Great Lakes.

Likely the largest "No Discharge Zone" body of water anywhere.

The water from Lake Superior flows 2200 miles before being discharged into the ocean. We've all seen it rushing over Niagara Falls. Lots of water. The solution to pollution is dilution right? Well that's lots of dilution. Then why are marine mammals at the end of it treated as toxic waste when they die?

Yes most of this is industrial pollution, but the point is, all of it ends up being concentrated somewhere. Like the fields of plastic floating in the open ocean.

Using pump out stations is not problematic at all.

It is a very civilized way to dispose of human waste.

Except in very rare circumstances, (equipment breakdown or flood) it is piped to a municipal waste treatment facility, before being returned to a natural waterway.

I believe it is better to at least try to avoid overboard discharge, especially in small bodies of water, than to ignore the impact one is having on others.

And please, don't attempt to justify by claiming that animals in nature poop in nature.

Human population density is not natural.

If we lived in this close proximity to so many others without means to dispose human waste, there would be mass disease and die-offs, as there are in nature, when population density becomes higher than nature can naturally support.

As boaters, we should be trying to do everything we possibly can to make the water we enjoy for our recreation cleaner; not attempting to justify how we are fouling it, even by our personal miniscule amount.

Remember the butterfly effect.

One seemingly tiny event can have unthinkable catastrophic impact.

Diseases, unknown to us today, could very well wipe out the human race, because just one person, carrying some freak-mutated bacteria, crapped in the ocean.

And just one of the 5 billion bacteria in that one turd, was ingested by another human being 500 miles away.

Can't happen? It already has. Before there was Typhoid or Cholera, there wasn't.

Fortunately, we figured out how to treat those.

Now we have Clostridium difficile (Cdiff).

Trickier.

What if we can't figure out the next one?

Think about it.

"Oh well, if that can happen, we'll all die anyway", is not the answer.

"Do what we reasonably can to prevent it", is.

No over-board discharge within proclaimed zones is at least an attempt.

Follow it and quit griping about your God-given right to crap where you want.

If nature had not already been altered by human intervention, you would most likely be dead already, and not crapping anywhere.

Zero risk that you would be "the one" after that.

I strongly suggest you reconsider any future cruising plans, otherwise you're in for some very unpleasant, stressful experiences in every port or anchorage. Most towns and cities around the world discharge their untreated waste directly into the ocean and seas. Most boaters do the same... as in nearly everyone. If you're this overly concerned, you'll be miserable.

Quite frankly, we assume the other boaters are discharging directly without holding tanks just like all the many thousands of beachgoers every day on the shore, and this fact doesn't concern us one bit. We still go swimming and scuba diving.

If you truly believe you can contract C-diff or become infected by a mutant virus or bacteria 500 miles away from a human discharge into the sea.... that's just kooky talk. I'm an RN who deals with C-Diff every day when on the job.

[desodave]

I think people are getting a little too convenient thinking that they've done the right thing using a pumpout to put theur sewage into a municipal system. I can use pumpouts around Victoria BC that go into the Greater Victoria system which is then pumped out untreated into the Strait of Juan de Fuca (about half a million people). I can use them around Vancouver and the Metro Van system ( about 2 million people) pumps inadequately treated sewage into the Fraser River. I have just transferred my discharge point - I haven't improved anything. I could have discharged in a more open location around Vancouver than where the sewage outfall is.
My own smaller community of Courtenay discharges sewage (primary treatment only) into the Strait of Georgia, and much closer than the 3 miles offshore (or middle of the channel) that I am legally required to do (and do observe). I'll question that many small systems do any better. Don't think that you've done good just by pumping into a municipal system.
Proportionality of the solution is a problem. Several years ago, Canada rewrote it's dumping regs, aimed primarily at cruise ships that ply our inside waters. They tried to require all boats period to use a pumpout. Hard to do when they don't exist. Where I regularly cruise it would be a daylong trip to one of the 3 stations at either end of the area - and that doesn't include having to time a Seymour Narrows transit. And when the City of Victoria at the other end of Vancouver Island gets to pump out the raw sewage of 500,000 people it is out of all proportion. And the politics in Victoria area had prevented any change with a few local scientists saying the dilution by ocean currents was sufficient to dilute the discharge. Took a more senior level of government to order a new system recently and several years of local bickering about where the ordered station would go.
At least reality hit home after the rec boating community protested, and the current discharge regs passed. I agree with the no discharge zones - we have several along the inner coast - because at least the responsible ones observe. But like Ken says, I'd never trust that everyone in the anchorage has done so.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

If you truly believe you can contract C-diff or become infected by a mutant virus or bacteria 500 miles away from a human discharge into the sea.... that's just kooky talk. I'm an RN who deals with C-Diff every day when on the job.

Funny statement.

So if you are a medical professional who understands C-Diff so well, why are you dealing with it every day?

Why doesn't the medical profession eradicate it.

Where does c-diff live?

Hospitals.

How?

Because of folks that think they are smart but are insanely stupid.

The hospital in our community was packed with C-Diff.

So the brilliant administration convinced the government that we needed a new "clean" hospital.

Millions and millions spent to build a fresh clean hospital with no super-bugs.

And then carted all the contaminated old equipment across the street from the old hospital into the new one, without so much as a wipe down.

Contaminated up the ying yang before the first patient walked through the door.

If the medical profession knew how to eradicate C-Diff, it wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be "dealing with it every day".

So if you don't know how to make it go away, how do you know that this stuff, that can live in a pool of hand sanitizer, can't end up transferring between people 500 miles apart, carried by an ocean current.

And so what if it isn't 500 miles, maybe it is only 500 ft. Doesn't matter, putting your poop in the water untreated, where someone else may come in contact with it, is just plain stupid. Shame on you. You should know better.

For those who don't, here's some interesting reading...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostr...cile_infection

This was only discovered in 1935, and is now rampant. How? People coming into contact with other people's poop.

Sensitive subject. My wife contracted it (or it became active) while receiving IV antibiotics for an infection that developed at the site of a spider bite while out cruising on our sailboat.

Now she has all kinds of bowel sensitivity issues, and probably will for the rest of her days.

Can't eradicate spiders, but we can sure stop pooping in the water where others may come in contact with it.

Macerators disperse turds, they don't make poop, and all the bad bacteria in it, go away.

[Delancey]

Mmmmm. Unicorn poop.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Funny statement.

So if you are a medical professional who understands C-Diff so well, why are you dealing with it every day?

Why doesn't the medical profession eradicate it.

Where does c-diff live?

Hospitals.

How?

Because of folks that think they are smart but are insanely stupid.

The hospital in our community was packed with C-Diff.

So the brilliant administration convinced the government that we needed a new "clean" hospital.

Millions and millions spent to build a fresh clean hospital with no super-bugs.

And then carted all the contaminated old equipment across the street from the old hospital into the new one, without so much as a wipe down.

Contaminated up the ying yang before the first patient walked through the door.

If the medical profession knew how to eradicate C-Diff, it wouldn't be here and you wouldn't be "dealing with it every day".

So if you don't know how to make it go away, how do you know that this stuff, that can live in a pool of hand sanitizer, can't end up transferring between people 500 miles apart, carried by an ocean current.

And so what if it isn't 500 miles, maybe it is only 500 ft. Doesn't matter, putting your poop in the water untreated, where someone else may come in contact with it, is just plain stupid. Shame on you. You should know better.

For those who don't, here's some interesting reading...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostr...cile_infection

This was only discovered in 1935, and is now rampant. How? People coming into contact with other people's poop.

Sensitive subject. My wife contracted it (or it became active) while receiving IV antibiotics for an infection that developed at the site of a spider bite while out cruising on our sailboat.

Now she has all kinds of bowel sensitivity issues, and probably will for the rest of her days.

Can't eradicate spiders, but we can sure stop pooping in the water where others may come in contact with it.

Macerators disperse turds, they don't make poop, and all the bad bacteria in it, go away.

You clearly don't understand basic biology or pathogens. You'd best stay home and forget about cruising, the anchorages and harbors have poop in them.

You might also wanna reconsider going out in public or eating out.... NEWSFLASH: Some people don't wash their hands after using the restroom and then touch stuff like doorknobs and shopping carriage handles.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Thanks for that Dave, I looked in Waggoners' and was happily surprised. A few right around the corner from me, too.

Of course the one in Sidney is virtually inaccessible, the one in Madeira Park broken most of the time, the one in Powell River (Westview) generally blocked by fishing boats etc. etc.

As far as I can tell, most of the Canadian PNW follows a "1 mile from shore... ok then pump away" sort of philosophy. I have no proof other than I have yet to find a useful pumpout station outside of Nanaimo. And Nanaimo's is fantastic...when its not full :-)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You clearly don't understand basic biology or pathogens. You'd best stay home and forget about cruising, the anchorages and harbors have poop in them.

You might also wanna reconsider going out in public or eating out.... NEWSFLASH: Some people don't wash their hands after using the restroom and then touch stuff like doorknobs and shopping carriage handles.

You forgot to mention people sneezing -- a sneeze from across the street is a lot more dangerous, like many orders of magnitude, than someone taking a crap in the water you're swimming in a cable away. But none of this matters if you're guided by pure emotion and irrational squeamishness. Howard Hughs comes to mind. The world is not a sterile environment.


By the way -- the comment was made that macerators don't get rid of bacteria. Not true! Macerating solid waste greatly accelerates breaking down of solid waste and destruction of bacteria contained in it. Seawater contains very little bacteria, and once waste is well dispersed in sea water, the bacteria in it doesn't survive for very long. The sea is an excellent waste treatment plant.

"Great numbers of bacteria enter the sea by way of surface drainage and sewage outfalls but, as one proceeds outward from land, an extremely rapid decrease
in the numbers of bacteria in the water is observed. Numerous explanations for the decrease in numbers have been suggested. Dilution, adsorption, and sedimentation
are factors of importance but they do not account fully for the rapid disappearance of bacteria that enter the sea."

http://aem.asm.org/content/7/6/388.full.pdf