Refer Insulation

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by Marpessa

All the existing foam is wet. I have found a source for dry rot, mold, who know what down there...


This is the original foam insulation from 1979. I'm going to hole saw some access today and dry to suck some of the old stuff out from underneath and get it dry.

If the foam is wet...the bad news is that you ain't gonna "dry it out"...you will have to Rip it out.

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Rich got tired of responding to my emails, so now I'm waiting until I have time to work on it some more.

I'm always looking for a diversion away from my boat projects and I never get tired of responding to emails or answering the phone. So if you got troubles...email me and save me from this fun...1 of 15! WTF does a boat need 15 though hulls for in the first place...this is CRAZY.

[Marpessa]

Yes I have realized the foam needs to probably be removed it is very water logged and seems to have turned into a giant sponge. I'm not entirely positive how to proceed without ripping all kinds of bulkhead out. What a project.
The idea of a vapor lock also seems unfeasible at this point as well. I'm looking at all the seams and cracks in the ice box, and trying to perfectly seal it is a fool's errand. I'm thinking the answer is in sealing the foam panels with the rustoleum rubber sealer and the Reflectix tape on the cut edges. The spray paint is going to work I think pretty well, it's going on smoothly. Maybe I'll also west system the cracks in the icebox as well to try and seal it. That will be after I get the foam out from under the box.


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[Terra Nova]

Mar--I'd rip it out and do it right.

[senormechanico]

It's a job, but I agree.
Rip it out.
You will probably be amazed at what you find and will be glad you did.

[s/v Jedi]

Check out my project: https://sv-jedi.smugmug.com/Projects...Refrigeration/

[Marpessa]

Yeah I'm gonna jigsaw out the cooler floor and extract the wet foam. What a pain the Arrs!!

R-max panels getting paint: spray rustoleum rubber sealer works great! And, the Reflectix tape adheres to the paint like super glue! I win again!!




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[cuttersailor]

What a great post, with really thought provoking comments.

SV's statements are, in truth though, quite pragmatic and don't get bogged down with the nit-picking stuff that so often surrounds this type of discussion.

cutter

[Marpessa]

Now for some notes about building a freezer inside an icebox:

1) if your boat is old like mine and there is existing foam insulation:
Check First if it is Wet!!

A) many have told me to just drill into the sides of the box and spray foam in there: I think it's a bad strategy.

B) if the foam is wet - it has been wet for years - and will never dry out. Trust Me On This One. I have not used my box for many years, always had a smaller cooler inside the box. This water in the foam is residual. Take a core sample with a hole saw and check your foam. My foam was so bad you could squeeze water out like a sponge!

C) I'm amazed at how long the old foam retains water. This should be an indicator of the risk involved with a poor installation of new insulation for your project.

D) the foam in the side walls seems to be dry on my icebox. Only the foam underneath the icebox was wet, mostly due to poor design.




2) seal your new foam that you are now installing with paint and tape

A) the aluminum foil cover on r-max is paper with aluminum paint on it. I bet it has a half life. When you use some form of paint (I used Rustoleum leak-seal) it strengthens the edges and faces. It's expensive, but I can feel the difference. The reflectix tape sticks better to the rubberized edges instead of a bunch of dusty foam. Double tape the cut edges with overlap (see pictures). Time will tell if I'm on the right path, and this is all new engineering for me. But, I now know from what I pulled out - I have to seal the foam...Otherwise it's a complete mess.



3) there seems to be two ways to approach keeping the foam dry: either to seal, or "vapor lock" the chamber around the foam, or seal the foam...

A) I think you need to prevent water vapor absorption from two fronts: most important, seal the foam as your first priority

i) I've been told to even epoxy the r-tape on the exposed edges: I may test the theory with west systems, will advise.

B) then seal the foam chamber, as a whole, as much as possible.

C) but what about drainage for the chamber?

i) this is something I've yet to figure out...but just for the sake of common sense - shouldn't there be some drainage holes to drain underneath where the foam on the bottom plane of the refer box is? Just for the condensation that could drip down and collect there? ...not sure about this yet.




4) use thinner gauge 1/2" panels for radial edges

A) You can stack them 10 deep or more and achieve the same r-factor, and still bend them into weird areas.



...suggestions will be much appreciated! Thanks!




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[ColdEH]

I have read that Ployiso does poorly at lower temperatures . You may be better off putting an inch of blue board in as the first layer against the cold side. Apparently rigid blue boards r value goes up a bit with colder temperatures . Just google it . Lots of information on studies that have been done. Something manufactures never tell you .

Regards


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[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by typhoon

I have read that Ployiso does poorly at lower temperatures .

That's not what our lab testing data shows.
We have built and tested 7CF boxes out of Blue Board, Pink Board, PolyIso (Rmax), Vacuum Panels, Ariogel...you name it...and we have test data on it.

Having a 1/3 better R-value than the classic Blue Board is a big deal in terms of how much insulation you can get into your space. We have found the PolyIso to be just as good at freezer temps as refrigerator temps.

The main argument against PolyIso is that it is NOT Hydrophobic, meaning that it will repel and not absorb water. But there are very effective ways to protect against water intrusion if the install is properly done.

[a64pilot]

SO just from an add to the existing system, meaning line your existing box, with a nod to much as you try, moisture will be present.
Go with blue board or Polyiso? I lean toward blue board with the idea of it's going to get a sharp corner of something puncturing it, matter of time

[SV THIRD DAY]

Blue Board is certainly better than nothing and yes it is more firm than PolyIso....but....

The classic thing to do is to add an inch or two of insulation to the inside walls of your Box. Or since a lot of the older boxes are way too deep (made for block ice) people fill in that wasted space with insulation. Now if all you plan to do is slap in some insulation...then yes, go with Blue Board. But most people want a nice clean surface, so they put either plastic or fiberglass wallboard over the PolyIso insulation. This not only gives a good water tight and cleanable surface, but it also adds rigidity and a bang and dent proof factor.

[a64pilot]

I've got sheets of fiberglass that is put on the inside of cargo aircraft, I estimate it's about .030 thick. I spray glued it to both sides of the blue board divider I made for my spill over and that made it very stiff and tough.
I hadn't though about covering the insulation I put in my box with it, it can be cut with shears, so it wouldn't be too hard I guess.
All this started with the idea of gluing some insulation in on the top as the counter top sweats now and I assume if that goes on long enough, it will eventually delaminate.

[Terra Nova]

64--your top insulation might be wet.

[ColdEH]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

That's not what our lab testing data shows.
We have built and tested 7CF boxes out of Blue Board, Pink Board, PolyIso (Rmax), Vacuum Panels, Ariogel...you name it...and we have test data on it.

Having a 1/3 better R-value than the classic Blue Board is a big deal in terms of how much insulation you can get into your space. We have found the PolyIso to be just as good at freezer temps as refrigerator temps.

The main argument against PolyIso is that it is NOT Hydrophobic, meaning that it will repel and not absorb water. But there are very effective ways to protect against water intrusion if the install is properly done.

Hey Rich . Love to see your test data , I may do a little test myself . I will post anything I decide to do . Maybe it was just a manufacturer trying to show up the other, that I read .

Regards


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