Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11-2013, 10:30   #31
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Just another data point, we used to have water cooled, and the extra power from the pump was a big draw, and the recommendation was to run the compressor at the fastest setting, which then drew about 7amps.

We switched to keel cooler, same compressor, fairly easy to install ourselves, and can say we are in the 45amp range with full time living aboard in the tropics with a 6 cut ft box.

Only issue we have with Frigoboat is the o-rings on the quick connects are a serviceable item, and should be changed every 5 years to prevent a leak into the system, which then causes more work, like vacuum pump and replacing filters. But, the quick connects let us install the keel cooler ourselves, everything is a trade off.

While on the hard putting a wet towel on the keel cooler works fine. Probably not as efficient, but you are plugged into electricity, so who cares.
__________________

__________________
Mark (It's Irie - Sailing Blog)
The Wirie AP+ and The Wirie pro - Long Range Marine WiFi and 2/3/4G Systems
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 10:32   #32
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the U.S.
Boat: FP Tobago 35 [sold]
Posts: 402
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

We have zincs on our keel cooler. No big deal. Just change when the zincs are mostly gone. Not sure what the complication is. Sometimes the zincs can be a challenge to get out because of the corrosion though, I will say a slightly smaller zinc, or a slightly bigger recess in the cooler would be a good idea.
__________________

__________________
Mark (It's Irie - Sailing Blog)
The Wirie AP+ and The Wirie pro - Long Range Marine WiFi and 2/3/4G Systems
kiltym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 11:08   #33
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 784
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Typhoon, Hermetically sealed compressors must rely on all process mechanical and electrical heat to be removed by a combination of; sub cooled returned low press refrigerant gas vapor, external surface area of compressor by fan or environment static movement of air, box Btu demands on compressor are too large, and an efficient condenser.

I do not believe Danfoss intended the design of BD compressors were to use with water as cooling medium because there is no reference to it in their application data specs.

Many boat ice box conversion units are operated with evaporator temperatures at zero degrees F that results in very low back pressure flow limiting heat removal from compressor.

On most boats compressor location is in a small closed space with little or no ventilation from fan or circulating air.

Compressor is forced to run at high speed with little or no off cool down cycling do to too large of a box and demand for low temperatures.
__________________
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 11:38   #34
Registered User
 
typhoon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 945
Images: 1
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

That's a lot of information Richard, thank you. So from your experience, ( which sounds vast, I found your site) your recommendation would be to stick with a couple of air cooled bd50's. One for the freezer and one for the fridge , and keep the water out of the equation.

Regards
__________________
typhoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 12:04   #35
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,005
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Talked with a cruiser passing through who'd spent a couple of years in SoPac. He installed a Frigobot with a keel cooler when his air-cooled compressor died, Said he went from regularly having to run his engine to keep up with the frig's demands to having electrons to burn. He had a wind generator and a not so large solar array on a monohull. Said he never ran his engine for other than propulsion after installing the Frigobot system.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 13:46   #36
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,653
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikereed100 View Post
My keel cooled frigoboat did very well in the tropics in water up to 90 degrees, with similar air temperatures. .
Unfortunattely, without box insulation and Amp hour numbers its really hard to compare what "did fine" means.

My AB cold machine "did fine" for years in Mexico but used over 125AH per day but I had cold beer and food. A friend has a Keel Cooled Frigoboat system in La Paz and his "did fine" also, but used 150AH during his summer in the sea stays.

The No1 thing with boat refrigeration systems and unfortuately something that most people have NO control over is the insulation in the box. I didn't because there was no way I was going to rip up the counters and re-do the box, so I just lived with the amp usage.

The best systems are air cooled to do away with the evils of salt water.
__________________
Rich Boren Goodbye Morro Bay...Hello La Paz, Mexico and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 13:47   #37
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 784
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Typhoon, with two boxes and capacity of two BD50 compressors your biggest problem is providing an adequate DC power grid to support total boats DC needs including refrigeration. The best place to begin before selection hardware is follow the slide show on my web site then select what type system it points you to. After you have in mind type of system email me your questions.

No one can accurately recommend a refrigeration system or manufacturer for you without a great deal if information from you. If you read the threads on this web site or the web refrigeration on a boat means different things to different people. Some believe insulation is the key others believe a system that is so called more energy efficient. A Btu of energy is always a fixed amount System Coefficient Of Performance (SCOP) can be improved with the new Danfoss compressors only if a boxís desired temperature can be maintained at a lower compressor speed. SCOP can also be improved by supplying the correct cooling medium temperature as possible 24 hours per day. Are there cases where water cooling may work best Yes but rarely on Danfoss BD compressor systems in very warm seawater.

Selecting mobile refrigeration has always been a problem but even more of a problem with manufacturer product lines taken over by others and companies closing their doors with no after market support. My biggest disappointment is creative marketing knowing they are selling expendable products instead of lifetime repairable units. Another problem is quoting daily Btu data without quantifying with meaningful conditions. A boatís refrigerator in tropical water in an environment without air conditioning uses two to three times the amount of energy than one in much cooler climates. Reporting 45 or less amps per day without knowing size of box and at what temperatures or how much liquid is refrigerated a day or people on board. This is not a good performance comparison of what to expect if you bought the system they recommend.
__________________
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 14:12   #38
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Reporting 45 or less amps per day without knowing size of box and at what temperatures or how much liquid is refrigerated a day or people on board.
You are correct - I missed those data when I reported mine. Below is corrected.

We have a 4cf freezer spillover cooling a 6cf reefer and an air-cooled BD50 compressor and thin plate evaporator. We use 45-55Ahr/day (depends on usage) throughout the tropics (Panama, Honduras, Guatamala, etc) where the air temps are 90+F. The freezer control set point is 10*F and the reefer set point is 34*F. There are two of us full-time on the boat using it. Water is added to ice trays every day in the freezer (2 cups worth?) and several soda/beer cans are added daily to the reefer. The rest is normal provisioning run additions as needed of meat, etc to the freezer and cheese, veggie, etc to the reefer.

That isn't a guess - we have a monitor on it.


Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 20:14   #39
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

BambooSailor: There are two criteria to be met when contemplating which version of Frigoboat Keel Cooler to install: 1) To ensure that the Keel Cooler is protected by a sacrificial zinc, and 2) to ensure that the Keel Cooler is protected from stray currents.
For 1): If the boat has metal thru-hulls that are connected together by a bonding system that is electrically connected to a sacrificial zinc, either mounted on the hull or on the prop shaft, then
Zincs on the Keel Cooler are not required. All that is required is a connection between the Keel Cooler and the bonding system. Vessels with plastic thru-hulls and/or no bonding system should install a Keel Cooler model with zincs.
For 2): To protect the Keel Cooler from stray currents, a connection must be made between the Keel Cooler and the boatís battery negative. Most bonding systems are also connected to the boatís battery negative, and so if installing a Keel Cooler without zincs, then this connection to the bonding system will be dual purpose. Otherwise, for a Keel Cooler with zincs, a connection between the Keel Cooler and the vesselís battery negative will be required.
Hope that explains it sufficiently, but please donít hesitate to contact us for further clarification or more information.
Frigoboat Info
__________________
Frigoboat Info is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 20:57   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Boat: Bristol 35.5
Posts: 100
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

The above information on zincs is good and true. I use some never-sieze paste on the stainless screws holding the zink to the cooler coil and remove/re-install the zink once yearly. I have 3 years on the zink thus far with minimum loss of the zink (this is, however, on my Isotherm system and as usual, YMMV).
__________________
sbrin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 21:03   #41
DoÖ or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Regarding to use in the tropics: I think many here underestimate the heat that comes off an air-cooled unit and how unpleasant that can be in the tropics. The keelcooler prevents most of this, which is a big pro.

In colder climate, this points to air cooled being the better choice as you get almost 100% efficiency when the heat can be used to keep the boat a bit warmer

On water cooled: forget that option, it is obsolete and it can sink your boat. Uses more energy (to pump the water) and upkeep cost too.

On Frigoboat keel cooled compressor temperature: this has been an issue. There is actually a small heatsink on the compressor and a small fan was added to that on my K50 units. I have replaced the small fan with a 4" standard computer fan which points at the little heatsink but also along the compressor towards the control module to keep that cool too. This has worked 100% and we had no faults at all in 10 years full time use!

On O-rings: yes, replace those every 5 years when in the tropics. This will prevent leaks. My first leak came after 7 years, so that was too late. Two other units started leaking a year later again; most used unit leaks first and that would be the fridge. My units came with spare O-rings.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 08:25   #42
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Posts: 784
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

After reading comments on this web site over the last few months why would anyone want to get involved with an unfriendly small water cooled refrigerator smaller than ľ horse power? Other than moving the boat a couple hundred miles how can you find someone to service and repair a keel cooler system and even then generally building in more problems or telling you to buy a new system. Gone are the days when just anyone could solve and repair one of these systemís serious deficiencies.

Things you need to worry about if you purchase water cooled or keel cooler unit.

If it comes with spare O rings, this is not a good sign. What air cooled unit needs spare O ring seals or routine seal replacements?

You need to know how to tap on line to get refrigerant flowing again. And eventually replace evaporator do to refrigerant flow problems.

You need to service refrigerant after O ring seal leaks. Now you will need servicing equipment and vacuum pump or repeated service tech visits.

You do not need to worry about zincs or about stray damaging electricity with an equally efficient air cooled units?

What can be done to insure system does not self destruct do to compressorís excessive temperatures causing POE oil to transform into a flow restricting substance.

What other refrigeration system is sold without a liquid line filter to protect refrigerant flow control device?


After reading just the Q and A on the marine industry web forums over the last four months this should have demonstrated why air cooled Danfoss BD systems can be expected to over time out perform water cooled systems. Reliability and repair ability are the keys to low maintenance costs and system longevity.
__________________
Richard Kollmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 08:57   #43
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
After reading comments on this web site over the last few months why would anyone want to get involved with an unfriendly small water cooled refrigerator smaller than ľ horse power? Other than moving the boat a couple hundred miles how can you find someone to service and repair a keel cooler system and even then generally building in more problems or telling you to buy a new system. Gone are the days when just anyone could solve and repair one of these systemís serious deficiencies.

Things you need to worry about if you purchase water cooled or keel cooler unit.

If it comes with spare O rings, this is not a good sign. What air cooled unit needs spare O ring seals or routine seal replacements?

You need to know how to tap on line to get refrigerant flowing again. And eventually replace evaporator do to refrigerant flow problems.

You need to service refrigerant after O ring seal leaks. Now you will need servicing equipment and vacuum pump or repeated service tech visits.

You do not need to worry about zincs or about stray damaging electricity with an equally efficient air cooled units?

What can be done to insure system does not self destruct do to compressorís excessive temperatures causing POE oil to transform into a flow restricting substance.

What other refrigeration system is sold without a liquid line filter to protect refrigerant flow control device?


After reading just the Q and A on the marine industry web forums over the last four months this should have demonstrated why air cooled Danfoss BD systems can be expected to over time out perform water cooled systems. Reliability and repair ability are the keys to low maintenance costs and system longevity.
Thanx Richard for chiming in. I think generally all systems on boats over the years have become "elaborate" to term it nicely. There are so many systems on a boat anyways and the likelihood of missing a routine maintenance issue is increased with every system you install. So why install something that is proned to catastrophic failure.
A good comparison is the Perkins 4-108 to the Westerbeke/Perkins 4-107. The 108 has it's raw water pump mounted on the timing case and when (not if) the pumps rear seal fails, salt water is allowed into the oil. No alarm will indicate that failure. The 107 has an external mounted pump to solve the problem.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 09:53   #44
Registered User
 
typhoon's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 945
Images: 1
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

I am inclined to agree with you as well Richard .

I have decided to go with a pair of Sea Frost BD35 air-cooled compressors . My fridge is 10 square feet and my separate freezer is 4.5 square feet. Both will be insulted all the way around with R60 vacume panels, except for the top openings doors wich will be R40 , 2 people on board 90% of the time and a cruising area south of the tropic of Cancer. Warm air will be expelled into the engine room which is constantly venting with a low speed fan to the outdoors . Does that sound like a good system. The Toronto boat show is coming up and Sea Frost will be there.

Regards
__________________
typhoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 10:11   #45
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,967
Re: Frigoboat Keel Cooler in the tropics

Typhoon,

Where are you sourcing your vacuum panels? How thick is R60? Any sense of cost? Expected life?

Since Glacier Bay stopped making panels, I wasn't aware there was a good source for boat use.

Carl
__________________

__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel, keel cooler

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.