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Old 07-03-2014, 10:32   #61
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
THE reason I won't dive a re-breather. It acts so fast, that often a diver loses consciousness before they can even change regulators to their "bailout gas" which only takes a couple of seconds.
Halon 1301 can still be had, but we are mostly sailboats, right?1301 HALON FIRE SUPPRESSION SYSTEM from Aircraft Spruce
I dive exclusively a homemade MCCR (Manual closed circuit rebreather), and never worry about CO2. It's all about proper procedures. www.airheadscuba.com/bletsop.html and rebreather support page Sometimes we can get carried away with doomsday scenarios.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:13   #62
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Off topic, but too many good divers have died on rebreathers for them to be worth it for me, Wes Skiles for one. What kind of recreational diving do you do on a RB?
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:23   #63
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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Off topic, but too many good divers have died on rebreathers for them to be worth it for me, Wes Skiles for one. What kind of recreational diving do you do on a RB?
Yes it is, but what I was hinting at is that risk is all around us. We can in most cases mitigate that risk, sort of stack the cards in our favor. The OP could do what he wants, but I think it is plain that CO2 or any inert gas would be engendering more risk than would be warranted. Compressed air could be used, but why go through all the trouble except to prove you could do it.

You should also be aware that there are those who would never use propane on a boat. Again, there is a risk, but ways to mitigate that risk.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:38   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bletso
Yes it is, but what I was hinting at is that risk is all around us. We can in most cases mitigate that risk, sort of stack the cards in our favor. The OP could do what he wants, but I think it is plain that CO2 or any inert gas would be engendering more risk than would be warranted. Compressed air could be used, but why go through all the trouble except to prove you could do it.

You should also be aware that there are those who would never use propane on a boat. Again, there is a risk, but ways to mitigate that risk.
I use propane on board, but I question whether it's really such a good idea. Yes, you can mitigate the risks, and I do, but why take such an inherently dangerous substance on board? Why can't we use CNG, which is lighter than air? Or just cook with electricity.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:35   #65
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

CNG isn't widely available unfortunately, and electricity? Pretty much would require a generator to cook say two meals a day wouldn't it? I see Propane as pretty much being forced upon us, alcohol is the next best thing?
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:37   #66
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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I use propane on board, but I question whether it's really such a good idea. Yes, you can mitigate the risks, and I do, but why take such an inherently dangerous substance on board? Why can't we use CNG, which is lighter than air? Or just cook with electricity.
Well Electric ranges generally require a genset to run. CNG is not easily available, least wise not in the US anyway. Plus its BTU content is half of propane / butane and its stored as a gas, so more fill ups are required. Propane does have risk. But you can at least smell a propane leak and use proper storage and detector systems.
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Old 07-03-2014, 19:36   #67
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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Well Electric ranges generally require a genset to run. CNG is not easily available, least wise not in the US anyway. Plus its BTU content is half of propane / butane and its stored as a gas, so more fill ups are required. Propane does have risk. But you can at least smell a propane leak and use proper storage and detector systems.
Half the hp and harder to get ... gotta getcha thinking propane.
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Old 07-03-2014, 20:35   #68
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

We are currently testing to go fully electric, using a portable Fissler induction plate. Still use the propane oven but already found a Sharp replacement convection/microwave combo oven that fits in the same space.

Yes you need a genset. Yes you can get rid of the propane tanks, regulators, all the hoses, valves, solenoids, alarms, control panels, propane refill routine etc.

Well be solar + diesel (+ shorepower) only; no wind, no propane. It'll be much safer.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:32   #69
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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Off topic, but too many good divers have died on rebreathers for them to be worth it for me, Wes Skiles for one. What kind of recreational diving do you do on a RB?
A better way of putting it would be that many good divers have died on big dives that needed rebreathers to complete.
I‘ve seen a friend have a mild co2 hit on a rebreather, and it was enlightening as to how dumb and unhappy he said he got so quickly. And this was mainly retained co2, so certainly not in the immediately dangerous range.

So co2 is patently stupid, but I am intreged by the idea of running a system on compressed air. A standard air tank holds around 100 cuft or 2000 litres of air, that would give a fair duration between fills. A standard scuba reg drop the pressure down to 10 bar, and tuning a second stage to deliver 2 bar would be trivial. Build the system to a test pressure of 5 bar, have a blow off at 4 bar that whistles, and i think that it could be simple and robust.
Pneumatics, like hydraulics, are pretty simple and reliable, certainly better than herding sparks in a salt water environment. Given I will always be carrying a bunch of dive gear anyway, the idea may be worth exploring.

Mike
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:38   #70
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Look up Wes Skiles death, RB's kill in shallow water also. RB's only make sense going deep and for extended times otherwise open circuit makes more sense, and for that reason most RB deaths occur in deep, long dives because most RB diving is deep and long, but sometimes people dive RB's in shallow water and die there too.

What kind of recreational diving do you do on a RB?
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Old 08-03-2014, 12:48   #71
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

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What kind of recreational diving do you do on a RB?
Almost all my dives are on rebreather, recreational, shallow, deep, cave. It keeps the skills up.
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Old 08-03-2014, 13:09   #72
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Say, isn't this stuff all in the wrong thread?

I'm thinking, the OP is dead wrong when he thinks he doesn't just have a huge SodaStream machine on board. That whole water tank WILL absorb CO2 and will nicely carbonate, and then, this all belongs in the MAKE MONEY WHILE CRUISING thread.

You know, drop anchor, hoist the fizzy flag, offer all those other parched cruisers a nice fresh fountain Coke or Dr. Pepper on the spot? No really, do you guys have any idea what a nice Coca-Cola can cost in foreign ports? (And I heard they charge $20 for a Coke at the Eiffel Tower. Wowser!)

And here's someone willing to just dispense the fizzy part just like water. Buy a couple of boxes of syrup and go for it!
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Old 08-03-2014, 14:00   #73
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Take it one step further, draft BEER, water is way overrated anyway
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Old 08-03-2014, 16:18   #74
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

I don't think CO2 makes any sense, and this thread substantiates that rather thoroughly.

If it weren't for the free and unlimited availability of the force of gravity, air would make sense to me, particularly on a boat which already carried a dive compressor and tanks.

Electric pressure water has never made much sense to me for a voyaging vessel, but that's because I don't see life at sea as being an extension of life ashore.

I see water as a precious commodity to be used in a way which maximises its utility.
So possibly my requirements will not be widely shared - at least, on this forum.

For a boat which is generally the right way up -- as I prefer any boat I'm travelling in to be -- a gravity day tank, filled every morning (either with a manual or electric pump) makes the most sense.

Such a system is inherently ideal for monitoring and limiting consumption of a scarce resource. If a tap is left open overnight, the only loss is what's left from a 24 hour allocation after a daytime's drawdown.

Air-activated pressure water (in addition to being useful in a location without gravity !), might have a place in a truly opulent vessel, being entirely silent. The improved reliability and (assuming the dive compressor to be direct-driven from an engine) reduced reliance on electricity would be a bonus, but it would still not match the simplicity of "unconditional readiness for service" of a daytank, which if necessary can be filled by a bailer.
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Old 08-03-2014, 16:44   #75
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Re: Compressed Co2 Pressurized Water

Let's clarify a bit here.

The danger is that over 7% (really 10%) co2 concentration will
occur on your boat FROM A TANK FAILURE. What is the risk that a tank releases its co2 suddenly in a way that you don't notice, and it fills your boat with 10% co2?
I have not heard of any cases like this. Tanks tend to leak slowly, and with any amount of ventilation it disperses, otherwise just breathing creates co2 that would accumulate and kill you. A co2 fire supression system on the other hand is designed to flood with co2, and that is a real danger.

Using 24oz of co2 to pressurized a 5 gallon tank to 50psi creates NO DANGER WHATSOEVER.
Normal water pressure is 50psi. The water comes out the faucet, not the co2.
Having carbonated water is no danger, and co2 evaporates from warm water.

What is extremely dangerous would be not having a fire extinguisher.
If a co2 fire extinguisher were 'extremely dangerous', do you think they would have marine approvals?

Let's try to keep with the facts, although I do understand this is Cruisers Forum.

This is what the EPA says about co2, note that up to 4% can be good for you:

>>>
The health effects associated with exposure to carbon dioxide are paradoxical. At the minimum design concentration (34 percent) for its use as a total flooding fire suppressant, carbon dioxide is lethal. But because carbon dioxide is a physiologically active gas and is a normal component of blood gases at low concentrations, its effects at lower concentrations (under 4 percent) may be beneficial under certain exposure conditions. ( Appendix B discusses the lethal effects of carbon dioxide at high exposure levels (Part I) and the potentially beneficial effects of carbon dioxide at low exposure concentrations, as well as the use of added carbon dioxide in specialized flooding systems using inert gases (Part II))

At concentrations greater than 17 percent, such as those encountered during carbon dioxide fire suppressant use, loss of controlled and purposeful activity, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death occur within 1 minute of initial inhalation of carbon dioxide (OSHA 1989, CCOHS 1990, Dalgaard et al. 1972, CATAMA 1953, Lambertsen 1971). At exposures between 10 and 15 percent, carbon dioxide has been shown to cause unconsciousness, drowsiness, severe muscle twitching, and dizziness within several minutes (Wong 1992, CATAMA 1953, Sechzer et al. 1960). Within a few minutes to an hour after exposure to concentrations between 7 and 10 percent, unconsciousness, dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, mental depression, shortness of breath, and sweating have been observed (Schulte 1964, CATAMA 1953, Dripps and Comroe 1947, Wong 1992, Sechzer et al. 1960, OSHA 1989). Exposures to 4 to 7 percent carbon dioxide can result in headache; hearing and visual disturbances; increased blood pressure; dyspnea, or difficulty breathing; mental depression; and tremors (Schulte 1964; Consolazio et al. 1947; White et al. 1952; Wong 1992; Kety and Schmidt 1948; Gellhorn 1936; Gellhorn and Spiesman 1934, 1935; Schulte 1964). Part I of Appendix B discusses human health effects of high-concentration exposure to carbon dioxide in greater detail.
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