Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-12-2013, 11:33   #31
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,331
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

It sounds like you are doing a good job of isolating the problem. Did you grease just between the shaft and the stern rubber bearing, or does it look like the bearing has come loose and you also greased between the bearing and its housing?

Go under the boat again and try to move the propshaft from side to side. If it moves more than 2mm, the rubber inside of the stern bearing has failed completely and the grinding noise is metal-to metal contact. The grease would quiet that for a very short time, and continued operation would damage the propshaft. If the play is less than 2mm, everything is OK unless the bearing is locked to the shaft and turning in its housing.

From the HR manual http://www.hallberg-rassy.com/Download/Manual-Eng.PDF

The propeller shaft (HR 40 – HR 64)
Normally the engine’s anti-vibrators will subside a little during the first season. It is therefore important
to check the level between the engine and the propeller shaft and maybe adjust it. This should be done
by an expert.

The propeller shaft seals (HR 40 – HR 64)







The stern gland is water lubricated and requires little maintenance. However, if the boat has been lifted
out of the water the black rubber seal has to be squeezed, to be refilled with water (only valid on HR 40,
43 and 48). If forgotten it will run dry and quickly be damaged. HR 40-48: Grease once a year or after
200 hours, according to the engine manufacturer’s manual enclosed. The HR 54 and the HR 64 are
fitted with a seal that refills itself with water.
Press here according to instructions
Note !
Note ! 9
The outer propeller shaft bearing is maintenance free in general. However, in very bad water conditions
(sandy waters) there may be a need to replace the rubber bearing. In this case you have to dismount the
propeller and two retaining screws on the sides. After this the rubber bearing can be pulled out with a
suitable tool.

The propeller
Every propeller must be checked regularly, at least very 12 months, more frequently if the boat is
extensively used. You must check the nut and that there is no play. A sail propeller with movable blades
should be greased at least once every season. Check that the blades move freely. If you want to demount
the propeller, please notice that this should be done when the propeller is still wet directly out of the
water. If you let the propeller dry, it may be very tricky to demount it.
__________________

__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 16:47   #32
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
W/o pictures it's a bit difficult to tell what you have.

Grease may present more of a problem then a cure in a long run. Cutless bearings have longitudinal groves which allow water to pass thru, in turn lubricating and cooling the bearing.

If those get plugged, the bearing could over heat and cause even more wear on the parts. And I'm not sure grease would stay in a strut hung bearing for very long anyway.

And if it is a spinning cutless bearing it needs to be secured in place some how even if you have to drive tiny wedges/nails between the bearing and strut. Or like stated earlier, tighten the set screws, if it has them.

Can you explain in some detail what your drive consists of from the coupler aft?

OK - U lucky guy! sounds like it might just be the Cutlas Bearing. Ours became packed with som much marine growth in the water grooves that the deposits wore down the shaft diameter. I will attach a few photos. The replacement was easy. Use a hack saw at the top of the cutlas housing to cut nearly all through the bronze outer of the old bearing. Pictures show the bronze sleeve and rubber liner cut. This relieves the press-fit stress and allows you to use a bolt & washer or fitted wood or aluminum plug to drive/press the old one out. Some bearings are retained by set screw instead of press fit. Threaded rod & washers to draw the new one in. I used an engine cylinder hone in a drill to clean up the bore before I pressed in the new one. The whole job was less than an hour.


Make sure also that there is no damage to the hull where the shaft penetrates. and is stabilized.
I saw a boat lifted one end clear of the water once using a crane. Alternately, you could have them sling the boat and only lift the stern far enough to clear the cutlass.

My shaft was so worn at the cutlas and at the packing gland that I had to have it built up by plasma spray and then turned down to size. The total refit stopped my massive vibrations above 1200 rpm. (and packing leak) You can see the worn area under the cutlas and the photo showing the SS plasma build-up before I turned & polished it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3854.jpg
Views:	142
Size:	413.5 KB
ID:	72473   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3856.jpg
Views:	157
Size:	379.7 KB
ID:	72474  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3927.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	420.0 KB
ID:	72475   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3929.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	431.3 KB
ID:	72476  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3846 packing gland.jpg
Views:	174
Size:	412.5 KB
ID:	72477   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF3844.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	449.3 KB
ID:	72478  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF4441.jpg
Views:	141
Size:	441.1 KB
ID:	72479   Click image for larger version

Name:	PA180013.jpg
Views:	169
Size:	384.7 KB
ID:	72481  

__________________

__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 17:10   #33
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,365
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

I sounds like you need to confirm if the Cutlass brg is loose in the boat. If it is, brass shim can be wrapped around it and drive it back in, underwater epoxy or other stuff would work also.....to get you by until haulout. BTW, if it's loose but wont actually come out, look for those set screws mentioned, sometimes they are filled in with bondo/bottom paint etc etc and you cant tell where they are.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 17:39   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Seem's to me that if you have any doubt about the safety of greaseing the shaft and bearing, you will pull the boat out and make sure the problems cured! Your to far from home to take a chance! the water your headed into is sorta motor nessasary! I would be very worryied about the damage that could happend when ya busted the line cutter !! Had to be a hell of a shock!! Just sayin, places to fix things out of the water are few and far between down there !!
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 20:23   #35
Registered User
 
BoomBrake's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Careel Bay, NSW Australia
Boat: Sparkman & Stephens Deb 33 - Design 1873 MkII deep keel - 1974 UK/Dutch built version Tartan 34C
Posts: 94
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

@Nicholson58: bloody great photos and excellent explanation, that should be a sticky. I was thinking about & really like the idea of lifting only stern out, as should minimise issues (& cost) when craning in a far flung remote area. Also agree with bobconnie's sentiments, better not to take chances there. Let us all now how you go.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
BoomBrake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 20:35   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, currently in Greece
Boat: Hallberg-Rassy 40
Posts: 357
Images: 4
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Wow, I never considered grease may be an issue!

Boombrake, if you get a chance please ask Darby. He checked our shaft (as did I) when they took Tenaya out of the water in May 2013. We did not notice any movement. That was probably 200 hours of motoring ago. I would love to have the bearing replaced, but Palau is sure not set up for taking a sailboat out of the water. The closest reasonable haul out is the Philippines, about 500 miles. I will have it replaced as soon as possible.
To explain our setup, from the gearbox, to a Centa Flexible Coupling to the stern tube and out the stern to the prop. There is no separate strut. By disconnecting the flexible coupling I was able to move the shaft back 5-7 cm and then put on Seldon waterproof grease and then moved the shaft back in.
Before I put on the grease I did move the shaft in and out a couple of time but the grinding continued until I put on the grease. I hope this doesn't cause a problem with the water cooling! Maybe it was marine growth between the bearing and the shaft. I had not put the motor in gear for 3-4 weeks. The bearing does not seem to turn when I turn the prop by hand, but of course I can't see it when the engine is turning the shaft.
jim_thomsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 20:52   #37
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

If you have marine growth in the cutlas it will be like spinning your shaft in sandpaper. Grease may make it hold dirt instead of flushing. Your observation with the grease tends to make me think the cutlas is the problem. Even if you only hoist the stern, pull the shaft clear, inspect and clean it out, you will be in better shape. We carry a spare cutlass. If you shaft is worn under on the diameter you may need to replace or rebuild it. Ours is 1984 and the variable pitch feature means the shaft has a coaxial push rod interior. The bronze hub is custom fitted as well. Our only choice was to fix it or pay a lot of boat bucks to replace. I suspect yours is around one inch and solid; less complex. It might even be possible to end-for-end with modifications.

Our worn cutlas was not evident from leaning on the shaft although a surveyor thought it might be dodgy.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 20:57   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, currently in Greece
Boat: Hallberg-Rassy 40
Posts: 357
Images: 4
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Nicholson58,
Fantastic photos and information.
As far as I can see the cutlass bearing is not moving, but that is from just hand turning the shaft.
bob&Connie, I would love to haul out and do it right. But the best they can do here is a construction crane that has not lifted anything at our weight and the pull out area we need to go into at HW, giving us only a few inches, so just lifting the stern won't work. They have lifted a couple of sailboats, lighter than us, but this is a sideline to their construction work. They also don't have any stands, so we would have to find some construction braces to hold the boat.
Breaking the line cutter was a shock, but I didn't see any real damage to the stern tube. That was in even a more remote place, Papua New Guinea where I gave the village their only pair of pliers.
jim_thomsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 20:59   #39
Registered User
 
BoomBrake's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Careel Bay, NSW Australia
Boat: Sparkman & Stephens Deb 33 - Design 1873 MkII deep keel - 1974 UK/Dutch built version Tartan 34C
Posts: 94
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Jim, I just spoke with the marina and Darby is off on Christmas holidays and not back until the New Year. Bluey is in Monday, so I'll give him a buzz and ask some questions. Yea, marine growth would be very active in that area, even after 3 weeks.

If it were me, I'd stay put until at least able to lift the stern out by crane and checking everything, removing grease and possibly replacing Cutlass Bearing. Wouldn't be risking reef eddies and so forth in case something seizes. I am being a bit over dramatic, but we don't know if combination of Cutlass Bearing plastics, petroleum based grease and high temperature friction can create a seized blob, or something more sinister. If the shaft seizes or seal gives and allows too much water into bilge, that won't be good especially mid-reef channel in a current. Will run all this by the marina guys and let you know their opinions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
BoomBrake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 21:08   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
delmarrey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Now in Blaine, WA
Boat: Modified Choate 40
Posts: 10,702
Images: 122
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim_thomsen View Post
Wow, I never considered grease may be an issue!

Boombrake, if you get a chance please ask Darby. He checked our shaft (as did I) when they took Tenaya out of the water in May 2013. We did not notice any movement. That was probably 200 hours of motoring ago. I would love to have the bearing replaced, but Palau is sure not set up for taking a sailboat out of the water. The closest reasonable haul out is the Philippines, about 500 miles. I will have it replaced as soon as possible.
To explain our setup, from the gearbox, to a Centa Flexible Coupling to the stern tube and out the stern to the prop. There is no separate strut. By disconnecting the flexible coupling I was able to move the shaft back 5-7 cm and then put on Seldon waterproof grease and then moved the shaft back in.
Before I put on the grease I did move the shaft in and out a couple of time but the grinding continued until I put on the grease. I hope this doesn't cause a problem with the water cooling! Maybe it was marine growth between the bearing and the shaft. I had not put the motor in gear for 3-4 weeks. The bearing does not seem to turn when I turn the prop by hand, but of course I can't see it when the engine is turning the shaft.
So, if I read this right, you have an in hull cutless bearing similar to one of these pictures.
Next, does it have a support bracket on the end similar to the picture?

A big problem with these types is the water lubrication. Some times the water is injected in. Others there are holes on the sides to allow water to enter forward of the bearing.
Attached Images
   
__________________
Faithful are the Wounds of a Friend, but the Kisses of the Enemy are Deceitful! ........
A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves!

Unprepared boaters, end up as floatsum!.......
delmarrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 22:02   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Apalachicola, North Florida
Boat: 1969 Morgan 28, Stiletto 27
Posts: 171
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

I have changed out a thru hull fitting underwater, It is a bit scary, but not very much water came in.

One helper is inside with rags. One helper is in the water with a toilet plunger. Somebody is in charge of the pumps. You take out the through hull,or in your case shaft, and cover with the plunger. I don't know if your bottom's contours will allow this. The big question is replacement parts and access to work without dislodging the plugs.

I have read of replacing the cutlass bearing with hydraulic cement in an emergency. The guy who did it said he suffered no major shaft damage, even after several hours of gentle use, but I did not witness the event.

I guess it is a question of alternatives.
__________________
Your WORKING IQ is your regular IQ, divided by the number of boats you own.
Bestathook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 22:24   #42
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Probably cheaper to buy a used25 HP outboard and have it ready for the inevitable outcome of Mr Murphy. And then go on to Philippines immediately.
__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-12-2013, 22:43   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,461
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

At this point I would be tempted to check the bellows setting on the PSS seal, and then put the engine in gear and run it at anchor for a while, first idling, and then (if you cah keep her anchored) at a slow cruise RPM. If nothing happens in a few hours of carefully monitored running, I'd then be inclined to trust it for minimal usage. If it fails this test, the outboard solution sounds a lot safer than a mickey-mouse crane op.

OH... what is the tidal range there? Is there any chance of careening or drying next to a wharf?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2013, 16:43   #44
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

Hi Jim,
Looking at the pics it seems you have a Volvo type lip seal on the shaft. If you decide to draw the shaft under water you simply need a piece of round stock (wood, nylon, whatever) to slide into the seal as the shaft comes out & secure in place. Voila, no water in the boat and a good seal whilst you sort the cutlass issue (if that is what it is). Having an offset shaft would acutally make this job a doddle and probably easier and cleaner than in a yard but if you need to drop the rudder it might be a bit different.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-12-2013, 17:17   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, currently in Greece
Boat: Hallberg-Rassy 40
Posts: 357
Images: 4
Re: Grinding Noise from Prop Shaft

So I think we will follow a couple of suggestions. First, too late to learn the grease is not a good idea, but today we will pull the shaft out again and at least wipe any grease left on it off. I can't image there is much. Then hopefully it still runs quietly.
And then (Thanks Jim Cate) we will run it in gear at anchor. At least at low RPMs that should not be a problem and hopefully it continues to run fine. If all looks good we'll take a 30 mile or so trip in the Rock Islands. At least we can be towed back is we have a big issue.
Thank you EVERYONE for so many great ideas! And also just having people to talk to about the problem.
__________________

jim_thomsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
noise

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What is Minimum Diameter for a Propeller Shaft foolishsailor Propellers & Drive Systems 47 09-12-2013 16:13
Engine & Prop Shaft Removal Lateralus Propellers & Drive Systems 16 06-11-2012 17:45
Prop Shaft Removal ppenoyar Propellers & Drive Systems 8 04-10-2011 02:33
Prop Shaft Leaking STG Construction, Maintenance & Refit 20 08-08-2011 16:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.