Taking a Friend Along Who Has 'Lots of Experience'

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Solitude

I don't throw lines to someone on the dock I don't know. I've had people grab a line and pull like hell ramming the bow into the dock.

That happened to me once. We arrived at a friend's house for a party. Our friend was on the dock, ready to catch our bow line. There was also some macho guy standing behind him, and as soon as my wife tossed the bow line to our friend, mister macho pushed him aside and grabbed the line away from him! I hollered at him twice to toss the line back to us, but he just pulled us HARD against the dock.
In hindsight, I should have floored it in reverse and pulled him into the water !!

Grr.

[Joli]

I think the jest of the thread is more about people that espouse knowing and really don't, skipper and crew alike.

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by Bash

For me, the hard lesson was to realize that just because a friend owns a 40'+ sailboat, I shouldn't expect him to know which boat is privileged in a crossing situation.

That's a good point Bash. Not all sailing, even within a cruising is the same. Boats and lifestyles vary. I've known some people who rarely anchor and find dong so difficult. I'm the opposite. I keep my boat on the hard and may only come to the dock 3 times in a 3-month cruise. For me coming to or leaving an unknown dock in a blow and current is much more difficult than anchoring.

[cantxsailor]

A really good sailing teacher I knew many years back would say "It takes about 30minutes to learn how to sail. It takes about 30yrs to get really good at it." To a certain extent I believe that. I've got the 30min part down and I'm working on the other...................m

[Intentional Drifter]

Here's the situation: At the Las Olas Marina, which has concrete fixed docks. After hours, so the marina staff are gone. An Amel Super Maramu flying a French flag is trying to pull into an inner slip with a fairly stiff following current. It was the only slip available, but it was just after low tide and I knew that they couldn't have more than a few inches below the keel in that slip. The skipper is having a hard time making the turn and takes a couple of tries. (For those of you who don't know this marina, it is rather notorious for bumper boat games.) Finally, he makes it and is coming straight into the slip, but too fast. There's just me on the dock, which is a couple of feet above his deck, but aligned just great to take out all that pretty stainless at the bow.

I'm standing next to the center cleat to take a spring line, but the skipper shouts at his mate/wife/partner/whatever to throw me the bow line and waves at me to go up to the bow. I know if I do that, one of two things might happen. Either I won't have the strength to keep that big boat from crunching on the dock (3 knots boat speed + 2 knots current X 35, 000 pounds = ee-gads!), or the boat gets cross-wise in the slip and she goes aground on the rapidly shallowing rocks only a few feet from her keel and rudder.

So, I remain at the center cleat and shout at the mate/wife/partner to throw me a bow spring and then the skipper to throw me a stern line right after. The skipper glares at me and yells a not-very-nice French word describing male genitalia. However, she does as I ask, I get the spring secured in time, the boat stops and the skipper tosses me a stern line and I get boat in without hitting anything either above or below the water. However, the skipper is still looking mad. He won't make eye contact and refuses any further help.

Over the next couple of days, the skipper won't say hi, won't make eye contact, etc. His wife/mate/partner does come by my boat the next morning and thanks me for the help, which was appreciated.

Now, normally I would never countermand a boat's captain, since I assume that they know their own boat far better than I, but obviously in this situation I thought that following his direction could quite possibly result in expensive damage.

So, what's the verdict from you folks? Should I have done as he asked, no matter what? Should I have just walked away and let them fend for themselves? I think that what I did was reasonable and proper, even though it clearly twisted the skipper's panties.

ID

[s/v Beth]

I like your point Unbusted , as I think all of us have sailed dingy's and flipped them. Best way to get my attention is dunk me in cold water. My main beef is big boats/no experience.
Steve- Oh I wish you would have had the presence of mind to put it in reverse at 2000 rpm! I will have to remember that next time a gorilla snags my lines.

[s/v Beth]

ID- can't believe you did that. Causing mutiny on that expensive boat. I would have come after you with my flare gun...
(If he didn't want your help, he should have jumped off and done it hisself)

[sweetsailing]

ID - I think you did the right thing. Few people understand the value of a well placed spring line.

"It takes about 30minutes to learn how to sail. It takes about 30yrs to get really good at it."

After 30 years time, he will give that day some additional thought and will conclude that you probably saved his butt.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by BubbleHeadMd

If you're the owner and captain, the bottom line is you're responsible. <snip>

I asked if they would pay to replace a blown sail, broken rigging or a tow if something failed due to a mistake they made and the answer was "no". The light came on, and they understood. So basically, Nautical62 has it right.

I was rail meat on a big boat one time. We were in a race sailing up the wrong side of the channel for the wind and against the tide. We had just blown the genny out (old and not the skipper's fault) - I leaned to my rail meat companion and said that we were on the wrong side of the channel and all the guys familiar with the area were on the other side. He asked my why I didn't say something. I replied that the guy holding the wheel was gonna buy the new genny not me so he could sail the boat any damn where he pleased. Later in the race we blew out the (old) main. Pretty expensive race to come in 5th outta 6.

Originally Posted by MarkJ

,snip>
stand there holding the line while she is saying at them "Put the bowline over the bollard". But do they? Nope, its like they can't hear her and need to hold the friggin rope while 8 tons of out of control boat bucks and rears....

8 tons of out of control boat? Maybe Nic should be handling the helm and you should have the rope -

Originally Posted by unbusted67

There is such a lie that men tell themselves that once they reach a certain age they have learned all that they need to learn and that they are, to a degree, capable of doing most things well. Not true," he said, "right now you have a toddler's muscle memory when it comes to sailing a Lazer, why would you expect to know any more? Have you done this before"

Even "experienced" guys fall overboard while docking. My pic last week...

Josh was helming, I was Mr. Cool standing on the tiny bow preparing to step off gracefullyto the dock. As he turned to port to align with the dock the boom tacked to starboard tack, he was sheeted in, the boat heeled, I swam. He laughed his ass off - totally worth it!

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

I like your point Unbusted , as I think all of us have sailed dingy's and flipped them. Best way to get my attention is dunk me in cold water. My main beef is big boats/no experience.

Capsizing dinghys is a mandatory training drill... And a heck of a lot of fun.

[Kordie]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I was rail meat on a big boat one time. We were in a race sailing up the wrong side of the channel for the wind and against the tide. We had just blown the genny out (old and not the skipper's fault) - I leaned to my rail meat companion and said that we were on the wrong side of the channel and all the guys familiar with the area were on the other side. He asked my why I didn't say something. I replied that the guy holding the wheel was gonna buy the new genny not me so he could sail the boat any damn where he pleased. Later in the race we blew out the (old) main. Pretty expensive race to come in 5th outta 6.

I don't really get this.

You were working on a fella's boat as part of his crew and you realised that he was at risk of damaging an expensive sail and you said nothing to him. In fact you seemed to experience some sort of schadenfreude as a result.

You sound like a pretty crappy crewman and not much of a bloke either.

I'd rather sail with a well meaning fool than an expert who'd get off on this sort of behaviour.

[Pelagic]

Ok….I admit it…. At Sea…I’m a control Freak!

I have 3 different types of inflections for my voice

• Debate Open: I am thinking we will do this

• Last Round: Yes this is what we’ll do

• Debate Closed: Do it now!

People used to pay me a lot of money to take their Super yachts around the world doing all kinds of adventurous things and I never worried if some of the crew or even guests/owners got their nose out of joint.

What mattered to me was that everyone was safe, everyone had a chance to grow and accomplish a life’s dream and the yacht and everything on board was looked after.

Everyone knew I had their back and was in control because they had my back.

Whatever happened that turned out bad… became my mistake and their lesson.

At the end of the cruise, we became friends again…. Simple as that!

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Ok….I admit it…. At Sea…I’m a control Freak!

I have 3 different types of inflections for my voice

• Debate Open: I am thinking we will do this

• Last Round: Yes this is what we’ll do

• Debate Closed: Do it now!

People used to pay me a lot of money to take their Super yachts around the world doing all kinds of adventurous things and I never worried if some of the crew or even guests/owners got their nose out of joint.

What mattered to me was that everyone was safe, everyone had a chance to grow and accomplish a life’s dream and the yacht and everything on board was looked after.

Everyone knew I had their back and was in control because they had my back.

Whatever happened that turned out bad… became my mistake and their lesson.

At the end of the cruise, we became friends again…. Simple as that!

You sound like the kind of person I'd like to be on a boat with, someone who can temper tyranny with personal growth!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Pleas do...best reading I'v done in a while.....

Beers on me as long as the stories are flowing..

Please do, great thread on an otherwise quiet afternoon in the office.

Oh and as for not buying a boat if you don't know what your doing, please remember the entertainment value for us sitting on the side of a marina watching someone else make a complete horlicks of it okay you shouldn't giggle at someone elses expense but we have made enough mistakes ourselves.

First time out we threw the bow line to the dock side helper, who pulled and pulled only to find we hadn't attached the line to the boat and a wee mistake with an anchor on a dive boat as 6 blokes watched all the anchor, chain and rope disappear over the side, only the end hadn't been attached to the boat

Pete

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

So, what's the verdict from you folks?

...we would have refused your help. Politely. The point here is that I don't want a line handler to help me stop the boat. I've got a 19" 3-blade prop that does a fine job of that. And although my boat displaces two tons less than a Super Maramu, if someone throws a loop around a cleat and tries to stop my boat a meter prior to where it wants to stop, there's a fair chance I'm going to rip the cleat right out of the dock.

It would be great if I felt I could throw someone an aft spring from the bow to a mid-dock cleat and have that person secure it quickly/securely enough that I could use the spring to power the boat alongside. That's how we used to bring commercial dive boats in to piers for unloading. Great system. But they don't teach this maneuver in the ASA sailing classes--few enough ASA graduates know how to cast a proper cleat knot with a 1" dock line--and most of the time if you wanted a dock helper to set up a spring they'd walk the bow line to a forward cleat anyway.

The point is this, and it's an inviolable rule on my boat and a great many larger boats: the lines are not tossed when someone on the dock yells for them to be tossed; they are only tossed when the helm gives the nod. This is not an arrogant policy--rather, it's a humane policy. I'd rather scuff the gelcoat than risk injuring a line handler who doesn't know what he's doing.

[Bash]

1. If it appears that I'm going to hit a piling, let me hit it. I can replace a broken stanchion far more easily than a doctor can repair your crushed ribs.

2. Please don't order the crew to throw the lines. They've been trained to ignore such commands, and it's embarrassing for them to have to pretend they can't hear you, especially if you yell louder the second time. The person at the helm will let them know when it's time to heave.

3. Large dock lines are heavy, especially when tossed down from a high deck. I ask my crew never to throw a line directly at a handler. If you want to try to catch a line, hold your hand out away from your body. That's where we'll aim. But if the line seems huge, it's fine to let it hit the dock and then pick it up. That's how the pros do it.

4. Some people seem to feel that they must immediately begin hauling on a line once it's in hand. Please ignore this impulse, especially if you're handling a bow line. Rather, take the line immediately to a cleat and make it fast. We'll take up the slack later.

5. Wind can be trouble once the boat comes to a stop. When the wind is on the beam of a high-freeboard boat, you may not be able to hold the boat in a gust, especially if you weigh less than 200 lbs. Our assumption when we throw you a line is that you are going to take it to the nearest cleat and at the very least give it a turn. Until you've done that, we're still at sea.