Taking a Friend Along Who Has 'Lots of Experience'

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Kordie

I don't really get this.

You were working on a fella's boat as part of his crew and you realised that he was at risk of damaging an expensive sail and you said nothing to him. In fact you seemed to experience some sort of schadenfreude as a result.

You sound like a pretty crappy crewman and not much of a bloke either.

I'd rather sail with a well meaning fool than an expert who'd get off on this sort of behaviour.

I think you missed the context.

- The genny had already blown out in the normal course of racing because it was old
- We were on the wrong side of the course for speed. We had disturbed air from the landmass and were in the fast part of the current going against it. The other boats were kicking our butt

My point to the other guy on the rail was that the guy who pays the bills gets to decide where the boat goes and it defintely wasn't my place to tell him how to sail.

I would also suggest that you may have not sailed on any big boats. For a guy invited aboard a 16 man crew for the sole purpose of hauling sails out of the pit and sitting on the rail to suggest to the Skipper (or anyone) in the back of the boat how to sail the boat is ludicrous.

If there was something of serious safety concern that's another matter, but cry wolf about something or disturb "the smart ones" and you're flicked. A big boat is not a democracy.

[NACRADUDE]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I think you missed the context.

- The genny had already blown out in the normal course of racing because it was old
- We were on the wrong side of the course for speed. We had disturbed air from the landmass and were in the fast part of the current going against it. The other boats were kicking our butt

My point to the other guy on the rail was that the guy who pays the bills gets to decide where the boat goes and it defintely wasn't my place to tell him how to sail.

I would also suggest that you may have not sailed on any big boats. For a guy invited aboard a 16 man crew for the sole purpose of hauling sails out of the pit and sitting on the rail to suggest to the Skipper (or anyone) in the back of the boat how to sail the boat is ludicrous.

If there was something of serious safety concern that's another matter, but cry wolf about something or disturb "the smart ones" and you're flicked. A big boat is not a democracy.

+1

I race regularly and until I was given the position of Tactician and co-helm I wouldn't say anything and do my job. Who was I to tell a former World Champion how to sail his boat.
Now we argue and I usually lose.

[NACRADUDE]

By the way guys, arfter reading this thread I hve A: laughed my ass off and B: learned a few things that I hadn't thought of but will now remember.

[Gangmaker]

My first post!

I own my boat for 2 years now. I took many friends on a day trip, and on some longer trips. I had mixed experiences but I always have a set of rules for myself and/or others:

- I'm in charge. It is my boat. If I make mistakes, or anyone else, it is my fault entirely.
- I'm in charge. See above.
- I watch my crew. All the time. See above.
- And I've learned not to trust the 'I have xx years of experience'... See below.

My sailing experience is not so broad as many here. I sailed a lot on lakes here in the Netherlands in what most of you would describe as dhingy's. 7 meters (21 feet) open sailboats. Fast, and lots of fun.
My sea sailing experience is very little. I did a 2 week course in Greece before I bought my boat. And I sailed her to England, once.

But I do have a feeling for sailing. I can be very clumsy with other things in life, but somehow I am not clumsy at all while sailing. I learn extremely quickly. I *feel* the boat, the wind, the sails, the rudder. It is natural to me.
That's all very nice and convenient but doesn't make me an experienced sailor. I know that. So I do read a lot, try to learn from others, and I try to sail as much as I can.

But back to the topic. Last year we went on the first sea sailing trip with the boat, to England. A 20 hour trip. I invited a friend I met on the sailing course in Greece. I trust him. We were a team in Greece (the instructor went down below to sleep sometimes, she knew we could handle it. she had never done that before she said). But, since we both never sailed a serious sea, let alone the North Sea, I invited a colleage. He had 'years of experience' also as an 'instructor'. I sailed with him one day in calm weather on the big inward 'sea' (lake) in the Netherlands. It was fun.
So we went of, and I brought two other friends with no experience. They proved very usefull and obeyed orders when needed and were just fun crew.
The experienced colleage however.. was a pain:
- he refused to sleep (watches). He "wasn't tired". Yeah right. My mistake: I allowed it.
- he refused to use life lines. Untill, after the 3rd time, I told him very very strongly he would sit down below for the rest of the journey if he ever did that again.
- when too tired, he almost hit a big ship (on a canal from the sea to Amsterdam). It came out of a side canal, but he thought he could hit the gas (diesel) and run in front. It went ok but was scary. A police boat happened to be closeby and the guys were mad. At me. And I took responsiblity and appologized to the officers.
- he bored us with 'tough tales' the whole journey. At the end of the day, nobody believed them anymore...

and now the best...
- in the first night I was asleep and was awoken by my sailing buddy I met in Greece. He wanted me in the cockpit since he didn't trust the judgement of the colleage.
When I came up above he was heading right for an anchored ship, in the middle of the sea. I asked him what he was doing. He said it was anchored, so he could pass just in front of it. It was on our courseline. I immediately told him to steer away. After some hesitation, he steered 10 degrees. I waited 5 seconds to see if he got smarter. He didn't. I told him to steer 40 degrees more immediately. At that moment we were already within 0.5 Nm of the ship. At that same moment we all of a sudden (in the middle of the night) were in a pool of light. A HUGE beam from the anchored ship shone at us. I felt embarrassed. I took the helm, steered some more away from it and passed in front at a 0.5 Nm range from it. We could very very clearly see the ship.

My lesson: people who shout the hardest that they have experience, probably don't. People who are quieter but love to join you sailing are mostly a lot better. And friends who don't have experience but are very eager to learn are the best crew to be honest.

But my biggest lesson: who ever you have as crew: you are the captain. Even if they have more experience than you. If they do, listen to their advice. Learn from them. But in the end, you are always responsible.

[NACRADUDE]

Originally Posted by Gangmaker

My first post!

I own my boat for 2 years now. I took many friends on a day trip, and on some longer trips. I had mixed experiences but I always have a set of rules for myself and/or others:

- I'm in charge. It is my boat. If I make mistakes, or anyone else, it is my fault entirely.
- I'm in charge. See above.
- I watch my crew. All the time. See above.
- And I've learned not to trust the 'I have xx years of experience'... See below.

My sailing experience is not so broad as many here. I sailed a lot on lakes here in the Netherlands in what most of you would describe as dhingy's. 7 meters (21 feet) open sailboats. Fast, and lots of fun.
My sea sailing experience is very little. I did a 2 week course in Greece before I bought my boat. And I sailed her to England, once.

But I do have a feeling for sailing. I can be very clumsy with other things in life, but somehow I am not clumsy at all while sailing. I learn extremely quickly. I *feel* the boat, the wind, the sails, the rudder. It is natural to me.
That's all very nice and convenient but doesn't make me an experienced sailor. I know that. So I do read a lot, try to learn from others, and I try to sail as much as I can.

But back to the topic. Last year we went on the first sea sailing trip with the boat, to England. A 20 hour trip. I invited a friend I met on the sailing course in Greece. I trust him. We were a team in Greece (the instructor went down below to sleep sometimes, she knew we could handle it. she had never done that before she said). But, since we both never sailed a serious sea, let alone the North Sea, I invited a colleage. He had 'years of experience' also as an 'instructor'. I sailed with him one day in calm weather on the big inward 'sea' (lake) in the Netherlands. It was fun.
So we went of, and I brought two other friends with no experience. They proved very usefull and obeyed orders when needed and were just fun crew.
The experienced colleage however.. was a pain:
- he refused to sleep (watches). He "wasn't tired". Yeah right. My mistake: I allowed it.
- he refused to use life lines. Untill, after the 3rd time, I told him very very strongly he would sit down below for the rest of the journey if he ever did that again.
- when too tired, he almost hit a big ship (on a canal from the sea to Amsterdam). It came out of a side canal, but he thought he could hit the gas (diesel) and run in front. It went ok but was scary. A police boat happened to be closeby and the guys were mad. At me. And I took responsiblity and appologized to the officers.
- he bored us with 'tough tales' the whole journey. At the end of the day, nobody believed them anymore...

and now the best...
- in the first night I was asleep and was awoken by my sailing buddy I met in Greece. He wanted me in the cockpit since he didn't trust the judgement of the colleage.
When I came up above he was heading right for an anchored ship, in the middle of the sea. I asked him what he was doing. He said it was anchored, so he could pass just in front of it. It was on our courseline. I immediately told him to steer away. After some hesitation, he steered 10 degrees. I waited 5 seconds to see if he got smarter. He didn't. I told him to steer 40 degrees more immediately. At that moment we were already within 0.5 Nm of the ship. At that same moment we all of a sudden (in the middle of the night) were in a pool of light. A HUGE beam from the anchored ship shone at us. I felt embarrassed. I took the helm, steered some more away from it and passed in front at a 0.5 Nm range from it. We could very very clearly see the ship.

My lesson: people who shout the hardest that they have experience, probably don't. People who are quieter but love to join you sailing are mostly a lot better. And friends who don't have experience but are very eager to learn are the best crew to be honest.

But my biggest lesson: who ever you have as crew: you are the captain. Even if they have more experience than you. If they do, listen to their advice. Learn from them. But in the end, you are always responsible.

Well said. I feel the same way. I take having peoples lives in my hand very seriously. And on the other side of the coin I take great displeasure in people with my life in their hands taking it for granted. I had to bitch slap a guy who made my lady cry because he was a tool and couldn't sail for ****. Never went back on that boat I can assure you. Then again, I was never asked.

[Don1500]

My brother and I had a saying when we got our first Hobie Cat. "If you don't pitch pole it once in a while you're not on the edge enough." I still remember flying through the air on the wire watching my brother slide into the mast, laughing my butt off. But 40 years ago we were the fastest Hobie surfing Shinicock Inlet.

I throw a rope to new crew and tell them to close their eyes and tie a bowline. IF they do it I believe a little of what they say. Not a true test of seamanship but an indicator of their dedication, they've spent the time to learn the knot.

[Motley]

I bought my 42' Slipper ketch in the river Clyde, near Glasgow, and had to get to Falmouth. My Dad (God bless him) got an experienced friend to accompany me. (Dad still isn't convinced I should be out alone - RYA Yachtmaster and several Transatlantics notwithstanding). So - (I won't name him, to spare his blushes; Brian, he's called Brian) we leave Belfast on the second night in a hooley of a northerly gale (not forecast, UKMO's sense of humour), and he promptly jibes. Later, we're in another surprise storm off Lands End (really, but REALLY where you don't need bad weather and visibility); and Brian decides he's not coming on watch. In the end one of my newbie friends helped out by spotting Bishops Rock light. We got into Falmouth just fine, but it definitely wasn't thanks to Brian...

Motley.

[Therapy]

I missed this thread while I was away for April I guess.

Great thread.

I don't have many friends.

Most of those don't know how to sail.

So I do most all of it and explain or show as they show interest. They get to do whatever I feel they can handle.

They are all told the basics though.

Let the boat take the hit. NOT you, is very important.