How do you deal with a bad captain?

[bill352]

What? All these posts and nobody has posted this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlqmu-ZpQ3E

[soverel]

How much alcohol on board and consumed in two months?

I have seen bad captains i would never sail with again. And have jumped ship once.

Many people try to take advantage. They think you are desparate. Always have a bit of cash stashed away.

Good luck getting back to your boat. I would do that before crewing again.

Sent from my HUAWEI-M931 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[NoQuarter79]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

That's very nice and certainly helpful.

Would you be so kind as to share those with us? I think we'd all appreciate it.

Originally Posted by NoQuarter79

I think we could have spoke up a little bit more, sure. There were reasons we did not at the time, but thinking back now those reasons should not have kept us from asking a question if we didn't fully understand.

I think we should have tried to talk to him about leaving before we did. I'm sure it would have resulted in the same thing, but it was not right of us to try to bail on him like we did. But it wasn't like he turned around and we were gone either. He saw us getting our stuff, then got mad about it.

When it comes to how we handled him though, I think we did the right thing. We didn't argue back with him, we didn't ask him to do things for us, and we followed every order as he directed, which would still result in him yelling at us.

I definitely know we learned a lot from the trip. I don't hate this guy, and he gave us an opportunity to do something we wouldn't have had the chance to do for a while. I guess it was just personal issues that got in the way.

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

What concerns me the most, when asked what they learned the OP's can't really say a single sea based thing. (or is my biased making me miss something??) If you spend two months on a boat with an old cote and haven't learned anything...hmmm. I would say learning seamanship demands effort from both teacher and student.

When I said we learned a lot, I was implying that we learned about sailing. I'm not sure what else I could have been referring to. We had never radioed draw bridges before that. We didn't have a lot of radioing experience at all until then. We had never gone off shore or done night sailing, those were both learning experiences. We anchored a lot, which we had only done once before in our own boat. We hooked up to moors which was a first. We learn something new about sailing every time we go out on a boat.

[BlueBuddha]

NoQuarter79, from my perspective you have shown an amazing degree of tolerance, non-defensiveness, and open mindedness.

You came here to get feedback not knowing that you were entering a pit of sharks of mostly captains that assumed that you were 100% at fault for what happened.

You were blamed for everything and very few gave you the benefit of the doubt.

People assumed you were arrogant as if you knew it all, when you never said or implied such thing. People assumed you did not follow orders when you explicitly said that you followed all the orders. The only time you explicitly "questioned" the captain by asking whether you should give the tanker more space you were actually RIGHT (you were the give away vessel and you were the one who had to make clear intentions and give ample room to the tanker). You were not only right in content, but you were right in procedure. Good captains will ask you to say something if you see something wrong. So keeping your mouth shut while seeing the tanker getting too close would be being bad crew. Everyone here knows that but saying so did not go with the narrative that it was all your fault.

People also assumed that you were needy, such as when you dared ask the captain for a fork even though you said explicitly that you did not ask him for one, you asked for permission to get one. The fact that you felt such level of fear from this guy that you felt you needed to ask permission to get a fork tells me tons about the type of person the captain is and the hellish environment you had to endure.

And then you come here and you get beaten again by a bunch of mostly captains that reacted poorly to your choice of title and decided to blame you for it all. Yet, instead of becoming defensive and angry, as most would, you continued to engage. You answered questions and clarified the story even when people accused you of things you didn't do or say. Bravo.

If at the start of the thread I didn't have enough info to know how much of the bad match between you and the captain was due to your own doing, I now realized that is extremely unlikely that you did anything to deserve the beating you got in the boat (or here).

You have done nothing but be gracious about the negative comments and accusations you received here. You even thanked everyone when many would have simply flipped the finger to all of us. You have remained open to feedback and responded to Monte's great question with a thoughtful list of things you learned from this thread and from the trip. Bravo x 2.

And yet people still keep beating you up and that will not change while the thread is alive because the narrative that what happened is your fault and you are to blame will not likely change.

So my advice to you is to move on from this thread. There is no need to keep responding. You learned much more than most would, primarily because of the incredible patience and restraint that you clearly have.

My only hope is that you don't give up on CF. There are some incredible nice and helpful people here and it is an amazing source of knowledge. Even some of the salty dogs that barked at you here are actually extremely helpful as long as you don't say the words 'bad captain' in the subject line.

So stick around, it will be worth it. Best wishes and fair winds.

(now I only hope I don't get beat up for this! )

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by BlueBuddha

NoQuarter79, from my perspective you have shown an amazing degree of tolerance, non-defensiveness, and open mindedness.

You came here to get feedback not knowing that you were entering a pit of sharks of mostly captains that assumed that you were 100% at fault for what happened.

You were blamed for everything and very few gave you the benefit of the doubt.
...
My only hope is that you don't give up on CF. There are some incredible nice and helpful people here and it is an amazing source of knowledge. Even some of the salty dogs that barked at you here are actually extremely helpful as long as you don't say the words 'bad captain' in the subject line.

So stick around, it will be worth it. Best wishes and fair winds.

(now I only hope I don't get beat up for this! )

+1

Well said Buddha.

[SkiprJohn]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I was also put off by the OP's attitude "I can do as good of a job as this guy or any guy, blah-blah". If anyone said that on my boat my reply would be: "Oh yeah? Then get your own freaking boat if you can do as good a job of buying, maintaining and sailing a boat as I can". Talk is cheap. Show me that you're are truly equal by your deeds and accomplishments and not because your college professor and the media say you are.

I think her point by the statement was that she could work as hard and as smart as a man in the same situation but was treated as if she couldn't because she was a woman. She wasn't wanting to take over the Captain's vessel.

[scotty c-m]

Thank you BlueBuddah for stating that so well.

NoQuarter,you handeled yourself well on this thread, and as far as I can tell, on the boat as well. Yes, as you stated, you could have done better (can't we all), but there were some telling descriptions of the skipper's behavior that indicate that he too needed to "up his game". By the way, assertions that this is somehow because (to paraphrase) "youth today are no darn good" is just wrong. So too are the statements that put you as a bad crew. Just to judgmental.

Going forward, have a great time on your next adventure. It's been my experience -I'm 66 years ond and have been sailing since I was in diapers. I wonder if I'll be sailing in diapers again ??? TMI - that most voyages make long lasting friendships. Fair winds and gentle seas!!

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

I think I've read enough now that I can make some meaningful suggestions.

It sounds like he had a faulty float switch on his bilge pump, meaning you had to manually flip the switch. A little bit of a sheen or greasy film in a bilge is normal for all but the best maintained boat. If you're running your engine and your bilge isn't making water your packing gland is too tight. From what I have read here- regarding the bilge, the guy likely did what any ordinary seaman would have done. I don't see any fault on his part at all.

Because of the above, I'm going to leave the technical aspects of seamanship alone.

As far as leadership goes, it sounds as though he may have had some weaknesses- maybe the guy wasn't an experienced leader, good seamanship and old age doesn't make somebody a good leader. At the same time I get the impression you and your partner were not experienced followers either, which likely exaggerated the situation.

I dont think a lack of social skills on any ones part was really the route cause of any problems either.

I think the dog that bit you was human nature. 30' is a very small space for strangers to hang out in for 2 months. I do lots of deliveries, some times as crew, more often as skipper. I much prefer paid crew when I can get them, not because of experience, but because people tend to interact differently when they are under the influence of a contract and that employer-employee relationship exists.

When I do take on voluntary crew- I steel myself first. I walk myself through it, mentally prepare myself. I generally let volunteer crew do as they please and learn as much or as little as they want to learn- in the hopes they will be there for me when things get tricky. I'd never yell at a paid crew, but even less so at unpaid crew.

Where I think your skipper made a real error in judgement- was taking inexperienced voluntary crew on board for 2 months on a 30' boat. It was a powder keg- you were bound to fight in those circumstances.

So, my advise on how to deal with a bad skipper would be, let's assume there was no bad skipper or bad crew, just a bad situation. The next time you plan a trip, make an effort to make a holistic approach to your planning, make contingency plans for all kinds of situations (including what to do if the skippers a jerk).

Get your hands on a risk and hazard analysis template- enter your concerns, and find strategies to mitigate risks. Probably the single most important element to a successful passage is careful planning. This planning is generally conducted by the skipper, but that doesn't mean the crew can't have their own plan in place.

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Noquarter,

It is really difficult when you have little experience to judge who will turn into an irrational shouter and who will not. As you could tell from this thread, there are some skippers whose way of enforcing that they are the ultimate authority aboard may be really unpleasant to do with. So you are going to want to come up with positive strategies for handling that. [I was told of a woman crew with a male skipper, only those two aboard, who was reduced to chucking winch handles overboard to forestall his sexual advances to her. They arrived in port (this was a SF to HI crossing) with one left.]

Family Van wrote that you could have a plan of your own, and what I am also seeing is that you had a missed opportunity: that of asking the skipper to explain his plan for the voyage. I tend to agree that overcrowding may have been part of the problem on your particular voyage, as well. If that feels true for you, then you will also want to think how you can make your off watch times keep you centered. You signed on to learn stuff, a review of what you've experienced can lead you to experiment with different behaviors. As long as you keep the welfare of the skipper and vessel paramount, and your learning right up there next, both of you should learn lots.

Finally, couples tend to act as a unit. To get the best service from you and your partner, expect the skipper to assign you to different watches. This tends to even out the interpersonal dynamics on a small boat where skipper and crew are strangers. [On our own boat, we even do this with our friends, and it works well for us when we have guests. The same gender people stand Jim's and my watches with us for as long as they want. This is not a volunteer crew situation, however, just us and long term friends.]

I want to say good on you for your positive attitude, and that I hope you can get back to your own boat soon.

Ann

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

...[I was told of a woman crew with a male skipper, only those two aboard, who was reduced to chucking winch handles overboard to forestall his sexual advances to her. They arrived in port (this was a SF to HI crossing) with one left.]
...

Maybe she should have been chucking them at his head

Yellers suck. I left a few race boats cause of yellers. When a grinder is grinding fast, bellowing "Sheet!, Sheet!" as loudly as possible is just stupid.

It'd be far worse on a cruising boat, where 99% of the time there's not much immediacy to anything. And those other times can likely be briefed for. (Of course, volume to get over wind/seas/engine noise is OK by me, or when safety is paramount like an unexpected gybe where somebodies gonna get nailed by the boom)

I don't think I've ever yelled on my boat. I have all kinds of random pickup crew too. But mostly daysails, so you know it's a limited amount of time.

If a skipper yelled at me inappropriately, I'd leave too.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

Maybe she should have been chucking them at his head

Yellers suck. I left a few race boats cause of yellers. When a grinder is grinding fast, bellowing "Sheet!, Sheet!" as loudly as possible is just stupid.

It'd be far worse on a cruising boat, where 99% of the time there's not much immediacy to anything. And those other times can likely be briefed for. (Of course, volume to get over wind/seas/engine noise is OK by me, or when safety is paramount like an unexpected gybe where somebodies gonna get nailed by the boom)

I don't think I've ever yelled on my boat. I have all kinds of random pickup crew too. But mostly daysails, so you know it's a limited amount of time.

If a skipper yelled at me inappropriately, I'd leave too.

I yell lots on my boat. Cuss like a - well - sailor at, 'experienced waves' after they've given me a good soaking. Waive my fist at newbie waves that miss, gleeful to have stayed dry. And yeah, after I've asked someone to hold on with both hands and been ignored five times my volume goes up. Sometimes after I've done something stupid and managed to survive, I'll yell at myself and well, cuss like a sailor. Very cathartic.

Where crew are concerned it's just a lot easier to say 'off the boat NOW'! Unless...

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

A captain, or indeed any leader, can command without being a jerk. If they can't, that just makes them a bad captain.

I would say that this sums up the entire subject in two simple sentences.

[sailorboy1]

The whipping will continue until the morale of the crew improves

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I would say that this sums up the entire subject in two simple sentences.

The issues at that point though is still personality, culture, experience, communication skills and the reception of the crew.

Even the best leaders have to struggle through most of those and only a tiny fraction of great leaders appear great to everyone.

Having the total and complete story helps determine in where things went right and wrong.

Probably not happening here so it will just be a debate until the picture becomes clear and reasonably accurate. Even then there's probably no absolute right and wrong ....depending how much started and continued based on my first sentence of variables.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by NoQuarter79

We did meet this guy and kinda got to know him months before we crewed for him. We had just never sailed with him before this. A lot changed from land to sea.



We were willing to take any opportunity to get a chance to crew. I would say this still stands true. We were in WV in February, and we had the option to go to FL and sail. Of course we jumped on that. We are in the same situation now; stranded in WV, trying to get back to our own boat. But should any crew opportunity arise, we will try to get onboard.

In Para 1, that is to be expected somewhat....most captains will have a personality change as you go from Joe nobody to Joe in charge. As was posted, no need to be a jerk about it, but some things may be based as much on the crews attitude and performance as anything. That can be the beginning of a slippery slope someone better fix.

in Para 2.... that might be your downfall. Jumping aboard with just about anyone can end in just about anything results.

While jumping ship is a great idea in some circumstances, like all endeavors in life, many things don't come easy. Some you have to make into something....I can only hope this experience is enough to arm yourselves with better tools before your next crewing experience...even if none of it was your fault.

[Wrong]

This thread has four legs...