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Old 27-03-2011, 20:52   #166
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Pblais... I have just re-read this entire thread again and thank you for your patience, insight, sensitivity and non-judgemental approach to moderating a really opinionated and poignant discussion on a topic that touches on loss of life, pushing the limits of endurance and issues involving judgement under duress. It is a tough topic that provokes many emotions. I applaude your evenhanded and steady control on the helm of this discussion. God look after those fellow sailors we have lost and their families... Thanks, Paul... Capt Phil
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Old 28-03-2011, 09:08   #167
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Re: Scavengers on cruisersforum

Reading this thread gives me an extraordinary bad taste in my mouth.

It could well be that it was to late in the season for this kind of expedition, Jarle Andhöy has always been at the border of what's doable.

Naturally, these kinds of events could, and should, be discussed on a sailing forum.

What makes me very upset is the 'tone of voice' from several of the posters.


Condemning not only this 'adventure' but also Mr Andhöy knowing that lives have been lost is absolutely unbelievable and unforgivable in my opinion.

So much more, since it's obvious that no one of the 'condemners' here even took the time to gather some basic facts about Mr Andhöy and his experience in sailing high latitudes. A quick web-search should have quietened at least those comments about lack of experience, ill equipped etc.

It seems obvious to mee, I am afraid, that there are a number of posters on this forum that has a lot of work to do on their personality and attitudes, and that Jarle Andhöy might not be the first one that has to 'mature' from experience.

Respect for the survivors, and their families is the key in a situation like this IMHO.

I have no personal relations with Mr Andhöy, other than being a sailor from the same part of the world, and I have been following his adventures for over 10 years on the web with much pleasure.

He is obviously a sailor and adventurer who has very limited financial means and therefore he has always flirted with media to finance his expeditions. The films are very entertaining if nothing else.

All sailors are not ex. corporate hotshots who can afford an early retirement to go cruising. Jarle Andhöy started his first Antarctic expedition at the age of 19, which is quite impressing in itself.

Obviously it's not possible to have a lot of experience at such an early age.

It always easy to kick someone who's already on the floor, literally knocked out.

My thoughts are with the families of the 3 missing crew members and with Mr Andhöy, who will be haunted by this trauma for the rest of his life.
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Old 28-03-2011, 17:19   #168
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Condemning not only this 'adventure' but also Mr Andhöy knowing that lives have been lost is absolutely unbelievable and unforgivable in my opinion.
I think people myself included are condemning it for precisely the situation you mention.

Dave
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Old 28-03-2011, 19:22   #169
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Re: Scavengers on cruisersforum

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Originally Posted by svrodeorm View Post
Reading this thread gives me an extraordinary bad taste in my mouth.

It could well be that it was to late in the season for this kind of expedition, Jarle Andhöy has always been at the border of what's doable.

Naturally, these kinds of events could, and should, be discussed on a sailing forum.

What makes me very upset is the 'tone of voice' from several of the posters.


Condemning not only this 'adventure' but also Mr Andhöy knowing that lives have been lost is absolutely unbelievable and unforgivable in my opinion.

So much more, since it's obvious that no one of the 'condemners' here even took the time to gather some basic facts about Mr Andhöy and his experience in sailing high latitudes. A quick web-search should have quietened at least those comments about lack of experience, ill equipped etc.

It seems obvious to mee, I am afraid, that there are a number of posters on this forum that has a lot of work to do on their personality and attitudes, and that Jarle Andhöy might not be the first one that has to 'mature' from experience.

Respect for the survivors, and their families is the key in a situation like this IMHO.

I have no personal relations with Mr Andhöy, other than being a sailor from the same part of the world, and I have been following his adventures for over 10 years on the web with much pleasure.

He is obviously a sailor and adventurer who has very limited financial means and therefore he has always flirted with media to finance his expeditions. The films are very entertaining if nothing else.

All sailors are not ex. corporate hotshots who can afford an early retirement to go cruising. Jarle Andhöy started his first Antarctic expedition at the age of 19, which is quite impressing in itself.

Obviously it's not possible to have a lot of experience at such an early age.

It always easy to kick someone who's already on the floor, literally knocked out.

My thoughts are with the families of the 3 missing crew members and with Mr Andhöy, who will be haunted by this trauma for the rest of his life.
When the death of a fellow sailor is involved you are bound to get opinions because in an ideal world adventure would come without death, however in the case of the Berserk the risks were always there because the experts argued this type of expedition had too many question marks with regards to safety and timing. I don't believe the tones in this forum have been inappropriate and I support Jarle. If you want to read tones that leave a bad taste in your mouth read the comments made by Skip Novak when interviewed with regards to this tragedy (See link below). Novak claims Jarle called him for advise on the expedition and then went and ignored all of his advise, he says I get calls from dreamers like him all the time.

Sail-World.com : The tragic loss of the Berserk - an analysis

In the case of the Berserk I would prefer to believe that severe weather overwhelmed a relatively small yacht, perhaps it would not have happened if Jarle was onboard at the time, perhaps his real error was leaving the boat in the hands of a lesser experienced person? Who knows, however I enjoy reading the opinions of fellow sailors because as Skippers we all aim to run a safe ship and I believe most of us would not attempt what Jarle has already accomplished. (not withstanding the tragic passing of 3 fellow sailors)

In Jarle's case he is younger and without the funds to run an expedtion like the professionals, he went to Antarctica illegally, he took risks, this is all true but he went like a true adventurer despite the circumstances that weighed against him, not all will agree and thats ok.
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Old 08-04-2011, 15:07   #170
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Hmmmm, A world without lawyers and insurance, those were the good ol' days.

but hey, we celebrate Columbus day too, among other stupid things!

Your Micky"D" coffee lids say hot and if you could stamp a pickle to say may be hot it would!

Too many people think it is their responsibility to police the world.

To blame an illegal alien for crossing borders and achieving his goals is a little hypocritical from someone that buy items handled by illegals in their own country!

wes

yes this is on topic!
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Old 08-04-2011, 20:59   #171
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Well said Wes, the times are changing, lets hope the pioneers dont..,
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Old 09-04-2011, 10:35   #172
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Two discussions from skippers with significant antarctic experience:

Short and sweet from Rich Haworth:
As I am sure many of you will have heard, the yacht Beserk has now been missing in the Ross Sea for over a month and is presumed lost with its crew of three. At the time of its disappearance, the skipper and one other crew member where attempting to reach the South Pole on quad bikes at a time when most research stations were shutting up for the winter.

It is unlikely that the full details of the sinking will ever be known but little of the coverage has been complimentary. What is known is that the expedition was in Antarctica without a permit. Far from being an administrative hurdle we would suggest that the process would have aided the expedition in questioning what they were doing and how they were prepared. This could have led to a far different outcome.


Longer from Don McIntyre:
The final outcome of the Berserk voyage to Antarctica is sad for a few reasons..but as I write this, I hope that the yacht with the three missing crew may still be afloat, slowly headed north, in a damaged state, without communications. The outlook is not good, with every indication that it has sunk and the crew lost.

The Captain, Jarle Andhoey, has simply been reckless from the moment he set out on this expedition. He has an adventurous spirit which I admire. I have laughed at a few of his exploits in the past. He has the right to do his own thing, as we all do, but only if it does not impact on anyone else, or break any laws which may be in place for the sake of the environment or humanity. As a self proclaimed 'Viking' ,he does not really care. He shuns officialdom and his track record shows he may not listen to the law.

He apparently spoke to quite a few experienced Antarctic adventures (myself included) before the began, for advice and opinions, but for his own reasons then disregarded most of it.

I have visited the Ross Sea for the last six seasons. I have spent most summers since 1993 in East Antarctica on yachts and ships of various sizes. Unlike the Antarctic Peninsula (which is much milder with less hazards), East Antarctica under Australia and particularly the Ross Sea, is not the place for your average well found centre cockpit, steel cruising boat.
You need a special yacht for that trip! During my own numerous sailing expeditions to the Antarctic, in specially equipped and prepared expedition yachts, the boat has hit ice and split the hull three times..water tight bulkheads were integral for safe passage and getting home. No other yacht had ever been as far south into the Ross Sea as Berserk attempted. Andhoey told me in November, before setting out, that he thought the Ross Sea would be easier than the Southern Ocean…I did not agree.

Collectively I have spent years sailing the Southern Ocean (including solo around the world) and the Ross Sea can be dramatically worse, especially when close to the Antarctic continent, where 'extreme' winds can create ridiculously unmanageable seas. In 80kts in the Southern Ocean, seas can still be managed and you don’t usually have ice. As expedition leader on Antarctic cruise ships, I have seen some sea states off Commonwealth Bay that I believe no yacht would survive, 'unless' it was the best of the best, specifically built for the job , manned by a very experienced crew and I would not want to be one of them….it is not a game.
You can be lucky and even go down in a multihull, but for me, you must prepare for the absolute worst and hope for the best. Berserk did not do that. They did not have a crisis management plan, they had no contingency planning, they did not alert the relevant RCC of their plans before setting off, they did not have the necessary permits under the Antarctic treaty (which is law for Norwegian yachts heading to Antarctica) and by all reports they were seriously overloaded.

I cannot comment on the equipment they had onboard, nor the training or experience of the crew, but if they were doing a full risk minimisation plan before they set off, they should have had a satellite tracking system reporting their position regularly, Iridium sat phones in Waterproof pouches, survival suits, PLB’s and at least two Epirbs,( one float free and one manual)..they should have had two life rafts, all the crew should have done a survival course and everything about the boat should have been in perfect condition, with great emphasis taken on watertight integrity…hatches and companionways etc..One can only speculate, but the photos I have seen of Berserk, if overloaded and icing up , could turn the cockpit into a big funnel ( if the companion way hatches breeched in a Knock down) pouring water below rapidly, as the 8 mtr seas are short, steep and would dump onboard easily.( not like longer Southern Ocean seas) With no watertight bulkheads and floating 'growlers' hard to see in 90kts of wind blown white out (which they had)…the results would be catastrophic. A helmsman in those conditions is afforded little protection from a design that is meant to be cruising the Pacific. It is all simply a bad formula!

In December Andhoey asked if I would rendezvous with Berserk off Ross Island at the very bottom of the Ross Sea. He wanted to transfer 1500 ltrs of fuel onto Berserk from the MV. ORION (4000 tonne expedition ship.) I agreed, but only if he could show me his permits to undertake the fuel transfer and the expedition itself. I would also then have to get special permits for that activity. The Antarctic permits are all about protecting the environment. He said he had a Russian Agent that would do that, but never did. He then said he did not need a permit anyway, as basically he would be a vessel in need of assistance. We made it clear that you cannot claim that if you are trying to organise things months in advance!

I told him to get out of the Ross Sea no later than Feb 20th as conditions can get very bad after that. It would mean leaving Ross Island by about the 14th Feb. He arrived late and unbelievable was apparently trying to get to the South Pole? on tracked ATV’s? when the rest of Antarctica ( Govt. and Private) was shutting down for the season as the weather is getting so bad?.

I love adventure and will passionately protect the right of people to do their thing like I myself have done and continue to do. Jarle Andhoey just set back the cause of responsible risk takers many years. The Norwegian Govt has announced that they intend prosecuting him. Many people selflessly put themselves in harm's way trying to find the lost sailors. Even the rescuer's job could have been made less dangerous, if Jarle Andhoey had been fully prepared and fully equipped.…or done as the true Vikings would have done and left the EPIRB at home……we all have the right to die.
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Old 09-04-2011, 10:48   #173
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Thanks Evans. Sad but to the heart of the matter and the I think the last line speaks volumes.
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:17   #174
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Jarle did pull the line a bit to fare this time, and it snaped.
but he will sail again.
May "there" god be with them all.
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Old 09-04-2011, 13:07   #175
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

In this world of hi tech everything, we believe that if we have enough of the hi tech, we are safe. Bull. This world of hi tech has offered mankind its finest hour [which we are failing] and robbed the individual of his. I forget the guy's name who wrote 'Sea Gypsy', but he surveyed wrecked sailboats in the Pacific and almost every one was lost while under power. I am building an engineless 6 ton schooner [changed over from originally planned cutter]. People who believe engines give them safety have told me I have more guts than brains. These guys from Norway knew their risks and decided to take them. Maybe they had more guts than brains, but they did have guts, which is more than I can say for the majority of humanity. I am sorry those guys died. But they died doing what they wanted to do, in the face of sea and waves which would have killed them no matter how many permits [or hi tech devices] they could have purchased. Like all who live on the edge, they took a risk. I doubt that they took if for '15 minutes of fame'. That is an accusation leveled at the brave by those who fear to tread outside the box.
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Old 09-04-2011, 15:15   #176
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

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I forget the guy's name who wrote 'Sea Gypsy',
Peer Tangvald i believe
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Old 09-04-2011, 23:26   #177
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Reading everybodys comments its clear we have 2 opinions if you like, the first says Jarle was a rebel viking with no respect for legality and experts advice, he was reckless and ultimately paid the price. Perhaps that is true, but he was an adventurer that couldn't afford to undertake the expedition in the way the professionals do, hell he pulled a boat out of a scrap heap and sailed thousands of miles with it, he successfully navigated the Northwest Passage, he pulled crew along the way, he overcame so many obstacles because he only knew one way, that is forward. He was extremely driven and certainly ambitious in his quests, I don't buy the opinions of Skip Novak and the like, but I won't go into that. In the end this was a true adventurer that knew nothing else, his crew went willingly and were aware of the risks, they could have turned back, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. We could all choose to stay at home and play it safe couldn't we? We all have choices, Jarle made his, navigating the oceans of the world is dangerous at antyime, even with the best made plans, accidents happen. Hell, nowawdays we have Pirates shooting sailors, yet sailors continue to sail the same waters, there will always be dangers and always be risks, the choice is yours...
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:37   #178
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

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Originally Posted by terrafirma View Post
1-Reading everybodys comments its clear we have 2 opinions if you like, the first says Jarle was a rebel viking with no respect for legality and experts advice,
2-He was extremely driven and certainly ambitious in his quests, I don't buy the opinions of Skip Novak
3-We could all choose to stay at home and play it safe couldn't we?
4-We all have choices, Jarle made his,
5-Hell, nowawdays we have Pirates shooting sailors, yet sailors continue
1- Jarle still is and will always be. he wants to live.
2- in an interview on Norwegian TV , when he came home, he told us that he never phoned Skip Novak and spoke to him, due to that he knew that Skip had never sailed the Ross sea.
3- The kitchen is where most accident happens. so is that a safe place to be ?
4-We sure do. and all onbord made there choise.
5-Yes, i feare the Somalien Pirates more than som big sea, and some ice.

---------
as a reminder, every year there is more than 20000 people killed in the traffic on US roads.
Do they all take the risk, and do they all know how big it is ?
Do they all have airbags in there cars and use safetybelts ?
What is SAFE ?

Happy sailing all, and take care.
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Old 10-04-2011, 06:23   #179
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

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as a reminder, every year there is more than 20000 people killed in the traffic on US roads.
Do they all take the risk, and do they all know how big it is ?
Do they all have airbags in there cars and use safetybelts ?
What is SAFE ?
Actually the average is about 40,000 killed yearly, but they've managed to bring that down to about 33,000 in the last couple years. In perspective, that equates to 1 fatality for about 80 million miles travelled, so still pretty safe overall. As for seatbelts, they've been legally required in cars in the US for over 40 years and compulsory wear laws have been in force in most states for the past 20 years - despite this, about 20% of vehicle occupants are not wearing seatbelts. It's estimated that about 5000 of the 40,000 average could have been saved had they been wearing their belts - they ignored the laws and common-sense and died as a result. Sound familiar?
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:53   #180
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Re: Heedless Venture to Antarctica

Hey careka.It sounds like Jarle has not been officially charged with anything yet?If you know his present legal situation please tell us.
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