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Old 11-09-2018, 12:06   #16
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Find an instance where someone has been harmed by an off gassing lead acid battery.
I have looked, and canít. I just donít think it happens, ever.
Weight is how they harm mostly, followed by electrical shorts outside of the battery and fires, spill acid on you etc. but nothing about inhalation of gasses.
Best study I could find was in mines, apparently they have huge lead acid batteries that power some mining vehicles, and of course mines are an enclosed space.
Well, there was this case a couple of years ago.
Hydrogen sulfide inhalation killed mother, toddler found on Florida's Turnpike in June - Orlando Sentinel

I remember thinking at the time that it sounded pretty implausible. I used H2S in my daily work for many years, and there is ample olfactory warning before toxic concentrations occur. (Nowadays, OSHA would require that work to be done in a fume hood.) Anyway, the chemistry of sulfur is notoriously complicated, and it seems possible that freak circumstance might have produced some other toxic sulfur gas.

However, food for thought: some cars, like my old BMW have the battery in the trunk - effectively within the passenger compartment.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:37   #17
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

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They complained of sore throats when the detector woke them , and both had severe headaches which lasted most of the next day.
Research around carbon monoxide poisoning can be controversial, though it must be mentioned that a substantial percentage of research finds that even mild poisoning events (maybe not even causing symptoms during exposure) can result in permanent cognitive deficits (amongst other things). These deficits are typically not immediately overt, but can be detected on finite cognitive testing. Long-term consequences will likely forever remain controversial, though most people don't like losing brain cells.

CO poisoning is massively under respected and misunderstood. If there is a CO exposure with any symptoms, this is a medical emergency on par with heart attack or a stroke because that is what is happening! The individual needs to immediately be placed on oxygen with a concentrating mask, should not move (i.e. eliminate muscle demand for oxygen), and remain on high concentration oxygen (typically until blood CO levels are decreased, as checked in the hospital).

I'm not suggesting that everyone with a CO event should be put in a hyperbaric chamber, though this is the best practice standard of care in many locations.

The research is controversial at least because many people smoke tobacco with CO levels overlapping levels found in CO accident exposure studies.

This 2002 NEJM study influenced a lot:

http://emed.wustl.edu/portals/emed/J...-27-154802-370

Cognitive sequelae atsix weeks were less frequent in the hyperbaric-oxygen
group (19 of 76 [25.0 percent]) than in the normobaric-
oxygen group (35 of 76 [46.1 percent], P=0.007), even
after adjustment for cerebellar dysfunction and for
stratification variables (adjusted odds ratio, 0.45 [95
percent confidence interval, 0.22 to 0.92]; P=0.03). The
presence of cerebellar dysfunction before treatment
was associated with the occurrence of cognitive se-
quelae (odds ratio, 5.71 [95 percent confidence inter-
val, 1.69 to 19.31]; P=0.005) and was more frequent in
the normobaric-oxygen group (15 percent vs. 4 per-
cent, P=0.03). Cognitive sequelae were less frequent
in the hyperbaric-oxygen group at 12 months, accord-
ing to the intention-to-treat analysis (P=0.04).
Conclusions
Three hyperbaric-oxygen treatments
within a 24-hour period appeared to reduce the risk of
cognitive sequelae 6 weeks and 12 months after acute
carbon monoxide poisoning. (N Engl J Med 2002;
347:1057-67.)
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:37   #18
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

In fact, many new (10-15 years?) battery chargers will not even charge a battery that has gone below 10.5 volts, because of the real risk of fire or explosion.

If your CO detector isn't prominently marked, you might also want to put a REPLACE BY date on it. Typically, five years from date of manufacture, IIRC?
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:42   #19
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CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddster8 View Post
Well, there was this case a couple of years ago.

Hydrogen sulfide inhalation killed mother, toddler found on Florida's Turnpike in June - Orlando Sentinel



I remember thinking at the time that it sounded pretty implausible. I used H2S in my daily work for many years, and there is ample olfactory warning before toxic concentrations occur. (Nowadays, OSHA would require that work to be done in a fume hood.) Anyway, the chemistry of sulfur is notoriously complicated, and it seems possible that freak circumstance might have produced some other toxic sulfur gas.



However, food for thought: some cars, like my old BMW have the battery in the trunk - effectively within the passenger compartment.


OK, one, although in that report it wasnít sure.
I would not and still think itís not possible, but some nut murdered his wife and daughter with a beach ball or similar full of CO, and I wouldnít have thought that possible either.

The Porsche case, would be one heck of a lawsuit I would think.

Many vehicles have the battery in the passenger compartment, my old but it was under the backseat. Our Miata its in the trunk.
Prius is in the back as well, but Prius and Miata are vented to the outside.
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Old 11-09-2018, 13:00   #20
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

When I was a baby, my Mom mis-handled the furnace in our newly-purchased house. Dad came home from work to find both her and I passed out from CO poisoning.

Explains a lot, I suppose.

Mom never went back to that house. Somehow, they were able to just transfer the mortgage to another with electric heat. Imagine walking into a bank and trying to do that these days.
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Old 11-09-2018, 13:01   #21
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

My CO detectors both have their "Replace by" dates stamped on the back, and also have a "Repl" code that should come up on the display on that date. But I have added the dates to my Outlook calendar just in case.
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Old 11-09-2018, 13:07   #22
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Mazda tried to improve on Fiat, by using the new AGM batteries in the trunk so in theory there would be no fumes emitted and no trunks rotting out.

I don't know about Mazda but for at least ten years now BMW, Audi, and others that put an AGM battery in the trunk STILL use an external vent hose, from the battery to the open air under the car. Making it a "sealed" externally vented installation. Porsche being a member of VWG, I would expect they do the same, and the Florida oddity might involve a replacement battery or other complications.
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Old 11-09-2018, 13:13   #23
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Only slightly off topic: there have been a couple of cases very recently of fatalities due to CO2 in the form of dry ice. In August, 2018, a woman died in a car used for delivering ice cream; four coolers containing dry ice were in the back seat. CO2 is heavier than air, odorless, colorless. I would not use it in a boat...
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Old 11-09-2018, 13:35   #24
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Years ago a refrigerant tech took his family camping, being lazy I guess he filled the air mattresses with Freon, when he went to top them off the next day he must have inhaled a lung full, it killed him. Being heavier than air he couldnít exhale it, although he tried apparently very hard until he went unconscious.

We tried using Freon in the tank of a ďMurdock air shifterĒ a pneumatic autoshift for drag bikes, worked great for a couple of shifts, then froze up.
Had no idea about ozone depletion back then, seemed like a good idea.
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Old 11-09-2018, 16:43   #25
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

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Only slightly off topic: there have been a couple of cases very recently of fatalities due to CO2 in the form of dry ice. In August, 2018, a woman died in a car used for delivering ice cream; four coolers containing dry ice were in the back seat. CO2 is heavier than air, odorless, colorless. I would not use it in a boat...

CO2 concerns are valid, but generally no need to avoid dry ice.

For what it's worth a human produces a pound or so of CO2 per day.

It would take a highly unusual set of circumstances to ever raise CO2 levels inside a sailboat cabin from dry ice (very small airtight cabin). Otherwise CO2 isn't inherently dangerous if inhaled.
If very interested in dry ice safety, linked is one govt paper on the subject of dry ice in enclosed aircraft cabins.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online...ts/AM06-19.pdf

https://www.globe.gov/explore-scienc...e-1/index.html
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Old 11-09-2018, 17:07   #26
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

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Originally Posted by Steve Bean View Post
Only slightly off topic: there have been a couple of cases very recently of fatalities due to CO2 in the form of dry ice. In August, 2018, a woman died in a car used for delivering ice cream; four coolers containing dry ice were in the back seat. CO2 is heavier than air, odorless, colorless. I would not use it in a boat...
Well, off topic in the important sense that CO detectors do not detect CO2. Many do use dry ice in a boat. The usual way is in a top opening built-in ice box where dry ice works quite well in keeping food frozen for extended periods. One risk that certainly does come up. The ice box completely fills with CO2. That in itself is not critical, but stick your head in the ice box to look for something. You are likely to pass out. I had it happen to me once.
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Old 11-09-2018, 19:25   #27
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

Im gonna check the dates on my CO2 detectors....and consider adding another one.
Thanks
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Old 11-09-2018, 22:06   #28
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

CO detectors are the greatest life saving invention since smoke detectors. These detectors along with propane and other gas detectors are a marvel of science , and I wouldn't sleep in any room or boat with at least two of each detectors for every poisonous or noxious vapours that can be produced in that same enclosed environment. They're the lowest costing insurance out in the world today. If you don't have them , then get out tomorrow and get two of every kind for your house and your boat. Don't wait till you wake up dead one morning. CO permanently sticks to your red blood cells until they are dead. CO is much stickyer than Oxygen so there is no room on the red blood cell for the Oxygen. Blood cells live approximately six weeks.
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Old 11-09-2018, 22:49   #29
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

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Im gonna check the dates on my CO2 detectors....and consider adding another one.
Thanks
CO detectors.
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Old 11-09-2018, 22:49   #30
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Re: CO detector saved me -- with no CO present

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Im gonna check the dates on my CO2 detectors....and consider adding another one.
Thanks
No, check the dates on your CO, not CO2 detectors. And thanks to the OP I will do the same tomorrow!
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