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Old 11-12-2009, 12:44   #61
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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
I think your point was; seat belts make drivers drive safer and therefore imposing seat belt laws makes everyone safer.

My point is the probability of a better outcome with a seat belt is near zero. Seat belt laws were not put into place to allow you to avoid accidents or to "drive out" of a tough spot. This scenario almost never happens (and a 3 point attachment for a seat belt is not adequate for that purpose.) Instead, they are in place only to save money i.e., selling your feedom.

Additionally, my point was that there is a balance between imposing rules to improve the common good and taking away freedom. In my mind seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws cross that line. As well as forcing me to purchase S&R insurance or putting up a deposit to go offshore.
I'd be interested in hearing how exactly a seat belt takes away from your freedom? Be specific please. (Besides your 'freedom' to exit the vehicle through the front windshield, that is.)
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:48   #62
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How about this for being independant.
About two weeks ago. a lone sailor, north of Bermuda, requested assistance from the Coast Guard, for injuries received in a fall. A ship was diverted to his location, but he refused to abandon his boat, and instead requested medical supplies, and said he would wait for the weekly container ship to Bermuda to get a tow.
As an aside, I wonder if he was aware of the dynamics of towing a 42ft yacht, on the ocean, behind a ship which requires about 10 knots to maintain steerage. A little bit above his hull speed, eh!
Anyway, another ship arrived about 48 hrs later, to find him deceased.
Apparently, while transferring the body to the ship, it was lost to the sea.
It's about making informed decisions.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:57   #63
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Come on...I'll spell it out. When I get in a car I should be able to chose whether or not I want to wear a seat belt. Some days I may not feel like putting it on. It is my own personal decision just like if I decide to cross an ocean in a sailboat.

I guess I don't need somebody to make these decisions for me. I like to make my own right or wrong.

In reality, it simply reduces to how much government do you want in your life. If you want the government to make these kinds of personal decisions for you and everyone else, good for you. We agree to disagree.

Additionally, I believe we should error on the side of too little government rather than too much government much like the founding fathers of this great United States.
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:00   #64
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Can we nudge this one back towards the topic at hand, or at a bare minimum solo sailors? Seat belt and helmet laws are not really germane to this forum, nor are the politics of them.


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Old 11-12-2009, 13:03   #65
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Can we nudge this one back towards the topic at hand, or at a bare minimum solo sailors? Seat belt and helmet laws are not really germane to this forum, nor are the politics of them.


Thank you

I tried!!
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:08   #66
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Come on...I'll spell it out. When I get in a car I should be able to chose whether or not I want to wear a seat belt. Some days I may not feel like putting it on. It is my own personal decision ...
Perhaps not, if you also chose to drive on OUR roads.

Requiring seat belt use is no more an infringement on your rights than being required to turn on your headlights, or use turn signals, or stop at stop signs.

A law, whose aim is to reduce the private and public costs resulting from injuries and deaths caused by motor vehicle accidents, is within the purview of the State. Nearly half of the states in the U.S. have primary enforcement seatbelt laws, and the evidence shows that they result in significant public health and economic benefits.

From the moment of injury, society picks the person up off the highway; delivers him to a municipal hospital and municipal doctors; provides him with unemployment compensation if, after recovery, he cannot replace his lost job, and if the injury causes permanent disability, may assume the responsibility for his and his family's continued subsistence.

When you choose not to wear your seat belt, you do affect other people.

For instance:
- If you are unbelted during a crash, your body can become a lethal flying object to the other occupants in the vehicle. You can hurt other people and more severely injure yourself.
- Americans are paying $26 billion a year in injury-related costs for people who don't wear seat belts. Crash victims who are not wearing their seat belts have medical bills that are 50% higher than crash victims who wear seat belts. On average, those injured pay for 26% of these costs. The remaining 74% is paid for by "society" - your government, health care providers, us! That comes out of everyone's pockets in the form of taxes, insurance premiums, etc.
- The American Academy of Pediatrics published a study that showed a direct correlation between driver seat belt use and child restraint use. When a driver buckles up, child passengers are restrained 87% of the time. However, when a driver chooses not to buckle up, children are restrained only 24% of the time.

I just hope that most of us are better at staying in our own roadway lane, than we are of staying on-topic ("Missing Sailor").
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:12   #67
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How about this for being independant.
About two weeks ago. a lone sailor, north of Bermuda, requested assistance from the Coast Guard, for injuries received in a fall. A ship was diverted to his location, but he refused to abandon his boat, and instead requested medical supplies, and said he would wait for the weekly container ship to Bermuda to get a tow.
As an aside, I wonder if he was aware of the dynamics of towing a 42ft yacht, on the ocean, behind a ship which requires about 10 knots to maintain steerage. A little bit above his hull speed, eh!
Anyway, another ship arrived about 48 hrs later, to find him deceased.
Apparently, while transferring the body to the ship, it was lost to the sea.
It's about making informed decisions.

OK, OK... and what the point here? Maybe he died of a heart attack, maybe he underestimated the extent of his injuries. Sometimes you need to make decisions not having complete information. Maybe he owned the container ship. I don't fault this guy at all based on the above information. Geeze give the guy a break. Are you suggesting the CG should have over-ruled his choice to stay with the boat?
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:18   #68
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Gord,
We are all interconnected, etc. and there are costs associated with this. No man is a island. Where does one draw the line, the line between staying on topic or straying off a bit by using an analogy?

I meant the line between a citizen's freedom and an oppressive type government.
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:24   #69
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OK, OK... and what the point here? Maybe he died of a heart attack, maybe he underestimated the extent of his injuries. Sometimes you need to make decisions not having complete information. Maybe he owned the container ship. I don't fault this guy at all based on the above information. Geeze give the guy a break. Are you suggesting the CG should have over-ruled his choice to stay with the boat?
Watch your blood pressure!!

I expressed NO opinion as to the correctness of this decision. I was simply relating an unfortunate incident as reported in our daily paper. It is more closely related to the title of this tread than seatbelts and helmets.

Afterthought:
I have lived on this Island for 64 yrs, sailed 55 of them. I have lost about 6 personal friends to the sea. Men whose knowledge of the ocean, I so respected, that I would have trusted them with my life.
Lone sailors are a special breed,whom I greatly respect, but would not emulate.
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:28   #70
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It's about making informed decisions.
What is about making informed decisions? I interpreted this last line as somewhat sarcastic. Seriously, what point are you making here??
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Old 11-12-2009, 13:33   #71
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sad

Im sorry to hear that he has not been located
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Old 11-12-2009, 14:21   #72
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Quote:
I meant the line between a citizen's freedom and an oppressive type government.
You have reached beyond the line of OFF TOPIC on Cruisers Forum. Take the political discussion to some other forum on ANY another Internet site. We don't allow it here!

We are boating related. Were we to entertain any topic we would be overrun with all sorts of topics. You are toally free to discuss what you like of a boating nature here and discuss politcs every place you like except here. It's a fine line between this and total freedom. We are not infinite - this is all you get here. We don't promise total political freedom. We list the rules and you agree to follow them or leave.

Sorry folks, this thread is closed. Thread piracy is a crime on Cruisers Forum. Should there be any real news on this or any other missing sailor we would like to see it posted in the new thread with appropriate discussion.
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