Oyster Problems?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Thanks for that. It really infuriates me when people deliberately misquote like this. Especially deliberately misrepresenting to the likes of Bob Perry. As to rig's survival of course it wasn't my point as I stated multiple times, including in the actual post quoted, as you kindly note, and on a thread expressly about structural failure to the hull, no mention of the rig except in a dismissive tone. I will log onto that thread and have a look… I wonder who will be looking "stupid" when Perry sees the whole original post?

Stupid-or disingenuous?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

I'm rubbing my eyes with those plastic tanks glassed to the hull,, i mean its just me or someone notice the same?

You are not alone there!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

That is a good example of you mixing things up. A Isophtalic acid resin is not a "normal" poly resin (an orthophtalic one). The Iso has very good properties in what regards water sealing ( itis used on water bottles). This resin is much more expensive and has also better mechanical qualities allowing a longer elongation of a composite before it fails.

Obviously it is much more expensive. Funny the guys of Bavaria advertising the quality of the materials they use....without most not understanding a word of what they are talking about

And again I am talking out of the subject of this thread that is about badly built Oysters. I will try to be on topic and I will only post about that....or I try.

Says the guy who has never built a boat. I work with iso every day, and the majority of the boats I grind into are also built in iso, with an iso gelcoat as well. Has been pretty standard with all builders except the cheap euro builders for some decades now. Bene and several other builders of that stripe still use production ortho-I can tell, usually just by looking at it, always by the smell when I grind it. No lab testing required. They can't fool me!

[minaret]

Tomorrow I'll post some shots of the brand new Bene I'm working on now, and it's paper thin hull-can deflect it with one finger. It and the new Bav next to it also have things like fake plastic teak toe rails and trim-blech!

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by Polux

No, they modified the existing boats, beefing them and stop produced the Match series.

And it is not an old boat, it was designed in 2004, the accident was in 2005 and after that they delivered only the boats that were already commanded, modified the same way they had modified the existing ones. The last one was made in 2006.

That's not quite true. Bavaria 35 Match was still made and marketed in 2006 and they even made modifications to it for 2006 (not structural ones). 38 was the first in Match series and 35 the last. 42 and 38 had a similar structure around the keel and both were reinforced at Bavaria's cost afterwards. 35 has a different structure and that was not modified.

38 had no problems and when I talked with the man in charge I know from the repair yard that made the modification to two Bavaria 38 Matches he thought that the modifications to 38's where unnecessary. In his opinion the structure was on par with most other similar boats. And he has done 30 years of repairs after groundings so he should know.

I don't think Bavaria was ever happy with the sales figures of the Match series although they were higher than probably any other brand C/R boat model. Still far behind the Cruiser series. I haven't heard any official information about the causes of stopping the Match series.

In our club there are three 38 Matches and one 35. All owners are very happy with their boats, which are all bought second hand during 2010-2013. One had a quite hard grounding with a big dent in the lead keel (2.4 m draft). The owner (our clubs head amateur surveyor) thought there was no damage, but I adviced him to contact insurance and make a thorough inspection. I haven't yet heard what they found out.

In Finland we have a surveying system organised by the sailing federation. It is based on amateurs and is free of charge for all club members. Safety gear check every year and hull check every fifth year.

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Orthophtalic resin was commonly used by boatbuilders 20 years ago, now almost all builders of polyester boats use isophthalic resins, so nothing special in that. Only the builders of the very cheapest boats use chopped mat for anything other than the skinout mat or veil as some people call it. The Bavaria quality materials and methods are the same as those found in a 16 foot Bayliner runabout ie. the very bottom of the quality market.

You mean by "cheapest boats" e.g. Hallberg Rassy? I don't know what they are doing now, but about five years ago their hulls were mostly Ortho and even done by spray lay-up thus obviusly chopped. Their specifications said something like "Isophthalic resin is used", which is not entirely false, since it was used as well, but only in a small portion of the total laminate.

This was all relieved in the case where a surveyor found an almost new HR 37 as unseaworthy due to delamination without any grounding etc. https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/system/a...pdf?1345991315

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I have posted a copy of the damage survey of the Bavaria Match 42 that lost it's keel. You might find it interesting.

I followed that very well back in 2005. Nothing new there.

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by neilpride

So, in the Bava pic we have the clasic Plastic Fantastic crap, the infamous glued grid liner, with , wait , no beams or partitions in the bow area? and from the picture what is that? a white plastic tank glased to the hull? no framing in the aft of the hull sections?

I'm not familiar with the current Farr Bavaria models, but I know quite well the J&J models (up to 2008-2010).

So the following is about the older models:

They have all the bulkheads, bunk sides, galley etc. glassed to the hull. Basically all wood close to hull is glassed to hull. Probably the grid was made in its own mold, but then it was glassed over to the hull and all the keel bolts go through that glassing.

There is also one or two longitudal bulkhead glassed to the hull in bow and stern areas.

What do you see as a problem in a plastic tank glassed to the hull?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by minaret

I too will post more pics for edification shortly. Did a SS bow plate on a Bene today, hull thickness right on 5/16".

5/16"?? That's what, about 7mm? Where in the hull? I wouldn't have thought they could be that thin.

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5/16"?? That's what, about 7mm? Where in the hull? I wouldn't have thought they could be that thin.

5/16" is almost excactly 8 mm, so maybe 7 mm + gelcoat? Gerr's book gives the 6.35 mm * Sn^(1/3) for lower topsides and 85% of that for upper topsides. So for upper topsides 7 mm is OK up to Sn=2.2, which is typical for a boat 37 foot boat.

The same book gives 25 mm for the keel region of a boat in Oyster 825 size, thus the found 15 mm is much more alarming than 7 mm on topsides for a much smaller boat (how big???).

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jmaja

That's not quite true. Bavaria 35 Match was still made and marketed in 2006 and they even made modifications to it for 2006 (not structural ones). 38 was the first in Match series and 35 the last. 42 and 38 had a similar structure around the keel and both were reinforced at Bavaria's cost afterwards. 35 has a different structure and that was not modified.
...
I don't think Bavaria was ever happy with the sales figures of the Match series although they were higher than probably any other brand C/R boat model. Still far behind the Cruiser series. I haven't heard any official information about the causes of stopping the Match series.

..

I was talking about the boat that had the accident, the Match 42 that was put out of production in 2006. All Match series went out of production shortly after that.

Off course you don't hearany official reason but the reasons are obvious: That accident blemish Bavaria's reputation and the Match series was particularly put in question. Besides regarding a mass production main market builder, performance cruisers are always a small part of their produced boats and the bad fame of a particular boat, of a side line, was putting in danger the reputation of its main product, so it made sense to just finish with that line, on a commercial point of view.

Even without problems to speak off, look for instance to Beneteau that seems to be finishing with its First line, that was on the origins of the brand, just because it does not bring them the expected revenue.

Probably due to the bad reputation, that is know unsubstantiated, the Match 42 is one of the best buys one can make if that is the type of boat one wants. A 2005 Match 42 can be bought for 60/70 000 euros with VAT paid, cheaper if the VAT is not paid. The boat has a very good cruising interior, better than the one of the First.

[jmaja]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Obviously they are made by hand , with regular Poly resin, with lots of chopped mat everywhere , nothing new in the Horizon...

Aren't all polyester boats made using quite a lot of chopped mat? Always chopped mat under the gelcoat and then in between every layer of multiaxial to prevent delamination of layers, most often as a combined mat/multiaxial like 1808. E.g. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...nstruction.pdf

Do you see something different in the Bavaria specification except the unusual aramid and more marketing oriented style.

Many boats in Sweden and Finland were made completely with spray lay-up during 70's and 80's and as I told earlier HR still uses (at leat used very recently) spray lay-up. Those boats have survived quite well although there were much more problems than with current boats in their early days.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by jmaja

5/16" is almost excactly 8 mm, so maybe 7 mm + gelcoat? Gerr's book gives the 6.35 mm * Sn^(1/3) for lower topsides and 85% of that for upper topsides. So for upper topsides 7 mm is OK up to Sn=2.2, which is typical for a boat 37 foot boat.

The same book gives 25 mm for the keel region of a boat in Oyster 825 size, thus the found 15 mm is much more alarming than 7 mm on topsides for a much smaller boat (how big???).

Well, certainly is good to have you aboard. Thanks for all comparative reliable data and the accurate information you provide in what regards boat design and scantlings.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by jmaja

Aren't all polyester boats made using quite a lot of chopped mat? Always chopped mat under the gelcoat and then in between every layer of multiaxial to prevent delamination of layers, most often as a combined mat/multiaxial like 1808. E.g. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...nstruction.pdf

Do you see something different in the Bavaria specification except the unusual aramid and more marketing oriented style.

Many boats in Sweden and Finland were made completely with spray lay-up during 70's and 80's and as I told earlier HR still uses (at leat used very recently) spray lay-up. Those boats have survived quite well although there were much more problems than with current boats in their early days.

No i dont think so, you have lots of chopped mat boats and then other builders minimize the use of chopped mat as much as posible, skin coats mostly.... What i see in the Bavaria yard tour video is lots of matt FG , i guess they use Bi E glass in the Layup , but my guess is not much ...

And there is no excuses for HR with the delamination isue, they screwed that particular boat, one thing is for sure in my mind, sooner or later those mass production market boats are going to take 1 or 2 steps back in the construction methods in favor of their reputation, Oyster is going to think about , or they are dead in a short future, there is no excuses in any way for a keel fall off, delamination, broken rudders posts, structural failures of any kind,,,,etc...

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5/16"?? That's what, about 7mm? Where in the hull? I wouldn't have thought they could be that thin.

Dont surprise me to much , but hell 7 mm in the bow area is kinda thin...