Open warfare in Puerto Vallarta

[chebba]

Here's a link to a follow-up story also on Mexico News Daily about the gang-cartel that perpetrated the massacre. Again, notice the comments. The first comment is from a Puerto Vallarta cab driver. Cab drivers usually know what is really happening.
Nueva Generación cartel: its strength is growing

[Moody46CC]

Law of Unintended Consequences.

By pretty much any standard, the war on drugs has been a failure, but before raising our hands and legalizing drugs, we need to keep in mind the law of unintended consequences. I've watched over the last two decades the trend to legalize gambling, an addictive behavior to many; non-addicitve to far more. In my state, when getting on the bandwagon, the state government turned video poker games and bingo into crimes while legalizing and monopolizing its own lottery. Our neighbor state had a lottery and one of our governors got elected based on a clever advertisement touting that adoption of a lottery here would keep our money in-state and would be used for education, next in attractiveness only to motherhood, the flag and apple pie. The upshot has gone far differently.

In more or less an inverse ratio to lottery revenues, the legislature proceded to cut state assistance for higher education--the group scheduled to benefit from the lottery. Naturally the tuition sky-rocketed. Anyone looked at even in-state costs theses days? And in the many convenience stores where the lottery tickets are sold, one sees poor people paying for the college education (lottery scholarships) for upper middle class kids. I've sailed (this is a sailing-boating forum, no?) in and out of Atlantic City a few times. Wow--is that depressing or not? Most of the casinos are closed, and the marina operators advise not walking the quarter mile to the boardwalk as it is dangerous. Legal but dangerous.

As anyone who has dealt with addiction of any sort knows, it is not victimless. Inevitably families and even third parties are dragged into the misery. I tend to be a libertarian regarding adult behavior, but releasing restrictions on highly addictive substances will inexorably bring into play the law of unintended consequences. That should not paralyze us, but it should give us a hesitancy before regarding the opening of the doors as a universal panacea.

[jheldatksuedu]

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusions, legalize gambling, build casinos, the casinos go broke. Thus gamboling has been proven to not be as addictive as once thought.

Politician promises Legalize gambling, fund education, gets elected, etc, etc. Doesn't come true, Is this the first time a politician promised something and it didn't materialize? The dangerous streets are not due to legalizing gambling, it's due to the poor economy in the area caused by businesses, politicians, and people that elected them making bad decisions.

The crime of drugs effects all of us (the law abiding citizens) much more than the effects of drugs. The people choosing to take the drugs, making a bad decision pay their own price for their mistake. It's not a disease, it's the result of a bad decision. Cancer is a disease, we may find out it also is due to bad decisions, smoking, working with asbestos, etc. but until it can be linked to such things, it is a disease, anybody can catch it. A decision can not be called "bad" unless one makes it when they know it can cause a problem. Excessive use of alcohol, Drugs, smoking are all bad decisions in my book. I grew up with access to all of them, I passed the joint from one side to the other in parties, I chose not too partake, I grew up with 2 parents that smoked, I drank my share of alcohol in college until I worked as a bartender, I made good decisions, I didn't catch a disease, because it is not a disease. A cold is a disease.

[crazyoldboatguy]

Originally Posted by tinkrman69

someone mentioned the Disease of addiction. can you cure Cancer By killing 1/3 of the victims? No, the same with addiction. But there is remission ( speaking form first hand experience.)
Most crime is caused by oppression. The oppression used by the greedy people who want more than they could ever use. The same Disease of addiction, just another type of drug.

Then there are the blind ones. Who look down on those with miss fortune, with distaste and put a wall up around themselves and say go away we don't want you here. Some even give a beggar a dollar and pat them selves on the back and turn around and vote for another war. They are the ones at fault, but don't know it. They see their own struggle for comfort and don't even realize how much is taken from the rest of the world to give them the opulent excess they think is "just comfort."
For every dollar you have more than you need someone else is doing without. America consumes 40% of the WORLDS recourses, yet we are only 5% of the worlds population. The American people didn't ask the other 95% for their contribution. Capitalism took it by taking advantage of their misfortune. look at NAFTA.

Those Mexican people mentioned, that aren't in the drug running, aren't affected? Go LIVE with them and say that again. You can't judge a man till you've walked in his shoes. Good or bad!

I've lived rich I've lived poor in the USA and other countries. I've done good things I've done bad things. I've learned that No one is good or bad. There are only some sicker than others. sickness is not a moral issue. A social disease can only be helped with compassionate understanding and a helping hand.

A drug addict in remission PEACE LUV & HAPPINSS

So much here to respond to - where does one start?

From the size of your boat I can assume that you profited somehow - yet you appear to despise the very system that allowed you to afford such a vessel. Or perhaps you stole it from someone - after a fit of being oppressed, of course. But seeing as how no one is good or bad, you should just be treated with compassion for the transgression of stealing someone else's property.

Yes, the USA consumes a lot of resources. We also produce an amazing array of goods and services that are then spread out around the world. Cut off our resources and millions of people living in near starvation would starve. Do you think Putin would come to their rescue?

Self hating Americans. Sheesh.

[Moody46CC]

My argument was not that legalizing gambling led to bankrupt casinos because gambling was not as addictive as once believed. I know nothing about that. In fact, my comment about gambling being addictive was "an addictive behavior to many; non-addictive to far more." The thrust of my argument was that the lifting of legal restrictions on gambling, making it legal and taxable, did not lead to the utopia promised by the folks favoring such a policy owing to the law of unintended consequences. Instead of becoming the yellow brick road to higher education in my state, the legalization of gambling led to far higher (some say exorbitant) tuition rates paid not by those attending college but largely poor people. That argument was pretty direct. My example of Atlantic City was indirect and probably rather opaque. The adherents of legalized gambling thought that this step would revive a moribund Atlantic City. Well, for a few years, but to my eyes the city is on life support.

Back to drugs and other forms of addictive substances or behavior. The initial foray is certainly a conscious decision and if it leads to addiction, a bad one. I think there is a lot of argument that certain substances cause in some people a disease that craves that substance at all expense. In other words, the addiction has taken over conscious control, and that makes it a disease in simple terms. Like you, I'm not wildly sympathetic to the wailing that alcohol or drugs are to blame for criminal or stupid behavior. When bad decisions are made, consequences follow and it is unreasonable to attach blame to others.

I'm probably with you in that if an addicted person is behind the wheel and causes harm to others the related alcohol or drug use is an additional charge for which severe penalty must be paid--not some defense or excuse.

But my argument is about legalizing drugs---it is that we need to look before leaping into legalizing drugs. My argument was that unintended consequences might follow, and I cited the legalization of gambling as an one example.

[motion30]

I dont know what the answer is, but i do know with certainty is what we are currently doing is not working

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Wrong

Best the U.S. is prepared to protect our border with everything we have, and don't wait too long before intelligence and the material necessary to fight back and win is provided to the Mexican government.

Don't lose a nights sleep over it, we can very easily close the border, with surprisingly minimum assets. My belief is there are a couple of rather large organizations that profit from Border problems.
Years ago it was called JTF6 when I was a part of it, and we successfully closed the Border many times, without costing the taxpayer much of anything, using available assets
U.S. military fights drug war on Mexican border

[osirissail]

of well, another thread of politics versus reality or superficial common sense. What seems to be argued is the validity of banning something or other versus leaving it alone for human nature to deal with the problem. Unfortunately, common sense and politics are not compatible and never have been in the history of humans.

Whenever anyone starts to rant about politics versus simple level common sense, I always end up giving this advice - - There is reality and there is "political" reality and they are not compatible nor are they interchangeable.

And - unfortunately, political reality rules.

So expecting or wishing that any government of politicians would do anything that seems like a common sense solution is pure folly - it ain't gonna happen. Nature of the beast.

[crazyoldboatguy]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Don't lose a nights sleep over it, we can very easily close the border, with surprisingly minimum assets. My belief is there are a couple of rather large organizations that profit from Border problems.
Years ago it was called JTF6 when I was a part of it, and we successfully closed the Border many times, without costing the taxpayer much of anything, using available assets
U.S. military fights drug war on Mexican border

Both sides of the immigration/border debate benefit from the confusion and lack of clear policies. The left gets more bodies across the border who are likely to vote with them if/when (inevitably, of course) they receive amnesty and are allowed to vote. Businesses (note I didn't say "the right" - I make a distinction between businesses and conservatives. They ain't necessarily the same) benefit from cheap labor that isn't predisposed to challenging working conditions, etc.

I would also note that there are few countries in the world that are so generous with their immigration policies, stated or not. Try to emigrate into Mexico from anywhere else. The laws are quite strict. Try to illegally reside in that country. The laws are draconian. The same is true for so many other countries in the world. Why is the US singled out?

The US has benefitted mightily from the influx of immigrants over the decades. A sane, proper, fair immigration system would benefit the entire nation. But both sides of the debate benefit from the insanity so nothing will change, in the near term anyway.

[tankersteve]

The important thing about this latest event is to read the details. This new cartel spinoff is specifically targeting law enforcement and the Sinaloa cartel. They are working an information campaign, specifically talking about not targeting civilians.

PV is pretty safe. G-town is too, if you don't go to the wrong areas. Just avoid the highways in the evening/night.

Tankersteve

Not condoning attacks on mil/LE - just see a cartel doing that as less concern to civilians. As a military person, I recognize we are a more legitimate target.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by crazyoldboatguy

This is a tough debate - legalize or criminalize.

There's a middle road.
While not 100% positive, Portugal has had a lot of success with decriminalizing drug use. Easier for people to ask for help plus many more benifits..

Drug decriminalisation in Portugal: setting the record straight | Transform: Getting Drugs Under Control

[Franst8]

Well, back to the original topic. Traveling in Mexico is no more dangerous than in any large American city and the people there are friendlier too. The publisher of Latitude 38 has been leading a cruisers rally to Baja, Mexico for over 20 years, over 125 boats each time. There has never been a single incident of violence to anyone in these groups ever. Many of these sailors opt to stay in Mexico for an extended period of time, some retiring there.
Using common sense and staying away from known trouble spots can usually mean a good time is had by all. Of course common sense isn't all that common unfortunately.

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Don't lose a nights sleep over it, we can very easily close the border, with surprisingly minimum assets. My belief is there are a couple of rather large organizations that profit from Border problems.
Years ago it was called JTF6 when I was a part of it, and we successfully closed the Border many times, without costing the taxpayer much of anything, using available assets
U.S. military fights drug war on Mexican border

There are lessons to be learned from violence in the Middle East regarding the evolution of insurgencies. If one considers the conditions in Mexico, especially poverty and corruption, it isn't hard to realize the same ingredients in the Middle East are present in Mexico.

Look at what's evolved from U.S. foreign policies in the middle East as the Obama administration tried to steer America away from deep engagement primarily in Syria. Sectarianism, insurgents and militias of different stripes grew and multiplied. Drugs and oil have financed insurgent activities and helped them expand. These same elements are present in Mexico. Replace the various insurgent groups with the different drug cartels and organizations and you have the makings of expanding violence and conflict. How long before these groups grow strong enough and possess sufficient fire power to attempt a coup d'etat? Clearly, the past in Mexico informs us of the ease with which policemen, soldiers, governors and other government officials can be bought.

Closing the border and turning a blind eye to the trend in Mexico is not going to make it go away. Sooner rather than later it will rise to a more serious matter of national security.

[chebba]

Originally Posted by Franst8

Well, back to the original topic. Traveling in Mexico is no more dangerous than in any large American city and the people there are friendlier too. The publisher of Latitude 38 has been leading a cruisers rally to Baja, Mexico for over 20 years, over 125 boats each time. There has never been a single incident of violence to anyone in these groups ever. Many of these sailors opt to stay in Mexico for an extended period of time, some retiring there.
Using common sense and staying away from known trouble spots can usually mean a good time is had by all. Of course common sense isn't all that common unfortunately.

That's the one idea I wish we would stop repeating. Traveling in Mexico is not like traveling in any inner city in America. In Mexico you don't travel anywhere on the roads after dark. Is that the case in America? In Mexico you have open daylight warfare with road blocks 50 calibre machine guns, rocket launchers and grenades. Trying to dissassociate tourism from this problem is sticking your head in the sand. This is not just a question of Mexico being a safe place to cruise go on a vacation. It's the reality of the situation - open warfare on our southern border that's ready to explode and basically caused by our drug problem. This is not only about some cruiser crying "I want my safe anchorage". This is about a people and a country with great potential being brutalized by an addicted big bully neighbor. Minimizing the issue allows it to continue. The reality in the USA is not what you see on TV. Bruce Willis is not weekly saving groups of hostage people while demolishing skyscrapers on his day off. But in Mexico you do have daylight road blockades cornering squads of Federal police and massacreing them.
We are financing this murder. If you think these bad guys don't wish to hell that they could operate north of the border you're wrong. It's easy to argue about it and talk talk talk. Any ideas about what we can do about it? Stiffer criminal penalties for dealing in the USA? Build more prisons? Decriminalize? Upgrade educational programs in the schools? Other ideas?

[Wrong]

Originally Posted by chebba

That's the one idea I wish we would stop repeating. Traveling in Mexico is not like traveling in any inner city in America. In Mexico you don't travel anywhere on the roads after dark. Is that the case in America? In Mexico you have open daylight warfare with road blocks 50 calibre machine guns, rocket launchers and grenades. Trying to dissassociate tourism from this problem is sticking your head in the sand. This is not just a question of Mexico being a safe place to cruise go on a vacation. It's the reality of the situation - open warfare on our southern border that's ready to explode and basically caused by our drug problem. This is not only about some cruiser crying "I want my safe anchorage". This is about a people and a country with great potential being brutalized by an addicted big bully neighbor. Minimizing the issue allows it to continue. The reality in the USA is not what you see on TV. Bruce Willis is not weekly saving groups of hostage people while demolishing skyscrapers on his day off. But in Mexico you do have daylight road blockades cornering squads of Federal police and massacreing them.
We are financing this murder. If you think these bad guys don't wish to hell that they could operate north of the border you're wrong. It's easy to argue about it and talk talk talk. Any ideas about what we can do about it? Stiffer criminal penalties for dealing in the USA? Build more prisons? Decriminalize? Upgrade educational programs in the schools? Other ideas?