Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2016, 09:48   #2866
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,461
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Nice guess but Wrong...along with the rest of the Meme built upon a false ASSumtion.
You don't have to be religious to understand that in the west the third day could relate to resurection. This is not a religious fanatic concept. It is just as much a cultural concept drawn from our societal history. So I can see how a sailor could easily see their sailboat as resurection. A new life.

The third day may on the other hand speak of the last 1/3 rd of a person's life. Again setting sail and living onboard their sailboat could well speak of the 3rd party of their life.

Now let's deal with anti religious bigotry by some in science. Science doesn't mean atheism. Many great scientists including Einstein intellectually accepted the existence of a creator.

Attacking a person because they use a quote from the old testament is to sink to a very low level indeed. The quote was in fact very wise. Only those who don't love thinking would attack such a quote.

Perhaps the world itself should have a new Third Day. A resurection of sorts from the old mindsets and ways of thinking. A world where we come together in honesty to solve problems. A world freed from the politically powerful who use mass manipulation of even science to achieve their perverse goals.

For me the most offensive thing about AGW is the manipulation of research. Dishonesty in science is deplorable. It is the falsifying of records, the unscientific recording of measurements and intellectual Dishonesty used to try and win a debate that I abhor to my core.

So. Can someone explain how, if I put water in my freezer it turns to ice over time. If I then now take the ice out of the freezer, put it in a glass and leave it out in the warm sun, it soon turns to water. I understand this from a scientific view so I really don't need an explanation.

What I don't understand is how the climate can be warming in the Antarctic while at the same time the ice extant is increasing?
__________________

__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 09:50   #2867
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,353
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Rich, when you get invited to a home, or a social gathering, do you normally jump up after dinner and start going off about the MMGW cult (or guns, or socialism, or some other hot-button topic)? No, right? Most of us were given some instructions about how to conduct ourselves in polite company. General rule- steer clear of religion and politics.
That's a false comparison.
A more accurate comparison to this thread and the discussion herein would be if the social gathering was for the purpose of discussing a topic. You don't go to a 7 year old B-day party and break out into prose about the scourge around child sex slavery or child hunger while singing happy birthday and eating cake. If someone is talking to you and asks you a question about a topic sure, you answer, but you don't bring up the MMGWC unless asked about it.

But that's not what's happening here. The thread IS about MMGW and the discussion is clearly about is it a true scientific occurrence or is it a fraud, a Scam...or as I believe a Cult. Now in this setting, where opinions are asked for it's absolutely appropriate to express your personal opinions...isn't that the entire point.

Now you may be insinuating that it's in poor taste to call someone a MMGW Cultist, you can make that argument, but be aware that at the same time then however, you would of course have to argue that it is in poor taste to call people MMGW Deniers...right...of course you would, but you haven't.

You say that it's polite to steer clear of Religion and Politics, however the entire MMGWC movement is attempting to use Politics to push their agenda. That's a nice way to silence critics (almost as good as threatening jail and prosecution) but sorry Amigo, you can't use political correctness as a weapon, your feelings don't trump our political rights or expression.
__________________

__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 10:07   #2868
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,353
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
For me the most offensive thing about AGW is the manipulation of research. Dishonesty in science is deplorable. It is the falsifying of records, the unscientific recording of measurements and intellectual Dishonesty used to try and win a debate that I abhor to my core.
As a Scientist myself, that's what sickens me the most as well, because when you can't trust Science, you can't trust anything in society. Science deals with what is True, what is Provable and Testable...but when it turns into a Cult and starts pushing an agenda other than Truth, it becomes a dangerous monster that was once used by American Progressives to advocate for forced sterilizations and eugenics of the master race by getting rid of undesirables. Hitler didn't come up with his master race concept by himself...he learned about it from American Progressives!
Now we have the same Progressive Movement using the Scam of Climate Change to get what they have always wanted...control of the Populace by the Elites...aka...them.

If this sounds new to you, then I would suggest you are a poor student of History (made so intentionally by the Progressives who control the Public Indoctrination System AKA Public Schools) and have some studying up on the Progressive movement, which was/is just another Cult.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 sums it up nicely:
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun

[[As a hint, you can also send the left/progressives/MMGWC into a tizzy by tossing in a biblical quote...almost like garlic to a vampire, it drives them nuts even if the said quote has self evident Truth in it...the fact that it's from the Bible sends them off the deep end. See the discussion on successfully Trolling for additional reference and context]]
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 10:15   #2869
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 584
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Going Walkabout View Post
...What I don't understand is how the climate can be warming in the Antarctic while at the same time the ice extant is increasing?
I've posted both of these links before, but since you are part of that proud group that is not interested in what scientific research has to say on the topic, it is probably a waste of time to post them again.

This new Antarctica study is bad news for climate change doubters | Washington Post

Deep, old water explains why Antarctic Ocean hasn’t warmed | University of Washington

Quote:
So. Can someone explain how, if I put water in my freezer it turns to ice over time. If I then now take the ice out of the freezer, put it in a glass and leave it out in the warm sun, it soon turns to water. I understand this from a scientific view so I really don't need an explanation.
Here's an interesting thought experiment, which actually has a bearing on the sea ice question:

If you put fresh-water ice cubes in a glass, then fill the glass full with salt water and let the ice cubes melt, will the water in the glass go down, will it remain the same, or will it overflow the glass?
__________________
SailOar is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 10:17   #2870
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 7,983
Images: 5
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
Guess you're not big on paying attention...

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooling

Repeat after me...

The cultist deniers cannot be taught anything...
The cultist deniers cannot be taught anything...
The cultist deniers cannot be taught anything...
The cultist deniers cannot be taught anything...
...
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 10:21   #2871
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 7,983
Images: 5
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
I do not read your cut and pastes. Your mindless spamming is exactly what it is. Spam. Your following me to a non related thread that has nothing to do with climate and making a snide comment on AGW to me makes you also a troll.

I have long ago ignored your daily spam. Trolling me on other threads has just shown who you really are.
...and this is my point above.
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 10:44   #2872
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 9,090
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Gentlemen and ladies.
We have started deleting personal attack posts.
Any more and the thread will be toast and the posters rewarded according to the rules.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is online now   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 11:18   #2873
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,461
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailOar View Post
I've posted both of these links before, but since you are part of that proud group that is not interested in what scientific research has to say on the topic, it is probably a waste of time to post them again.

This new Antarctica study is bad news for climate change doubters | Washington Post

Deep, old water explains why Antarctic Ocean hasnít warmed | University of Washington



Here's an interesting thought experiment, which actually has a bearing on the sea ice question:

If you put fresh-water ice cubes in a glass, then fill the glass full with salt water and let the ice cubes melt, will the water in the glass go down, will it remain the same, or will it overflow the glass?
OR will the heat generated by the salt cause the ice cube to melt faster?
__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 11:29   #2874
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,353
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Being an online moderator is a thankless job, I'm one for several other sites and it's a true dammed if you do/damned if you don't. So thanks for keeping us Children from playing with matches in the middle of the street.


What I find fascinating, both here and on FakeBook, is how the populace in general says they don't like negative political attack type ads. But I've come to the conclusion that people simply Lie to the Pollsters in order to give them what they "think" is the correct "politically correct answer" to not be thought of as a Neanderthal or worse...Trump supporter. Going negative, ducking the real issue and going after the people personally is as old as time...and the Voters (and maybe CF Members) must like it because they reward those that do it with electoral victories and participate in it themselves here on CF and FakeBook all the time.

Now back to the Teak Deck Project for me...my son graduates from High school after this school year and then my long banishment to the USA is over and I'm heading back to Mexico. So I gotta get my boat list done! Or on second though if HiLiary or El Trumpo wins in November, maybe I will just head South early. This years Presidential election is the Republic's Kobayoshi Maru Test.
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 11:46   #2875
Registered User
 
GoingWalkabout's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA & Argentina
Boat: In the market for a Lagoon 56 (seems like the perfect fit)
Posts: 1,461
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Being an online moderator is a thankless job, I'm one for several other sites and it's a true dammed if you do/damned if you don't. So thanks for keeping us Children from playing with matches in the middle of the street.


What I find fascinating, both here and on FakeBook, is how the populace in general says they don't like negative political attack type ads. But I've come to the conclusion that people simply Lie to the Pollsters in order to give them what they "think" is the correct "politically correct answer" to not be thought of as a Neanderthal or worse...Trump supporter. Going negative, ducking the real issue and going after the people personally is as old as time...and the Voters (and maybe CF Members) must like it because they reward those that do it with electoral victories and participate in it themselves here on CF and FakeBook all the time.

Now back to the Teak Deck Project for me...my son graduates from High school after this school year and then my long banishment to the USA is over and I'm heading back to Mexico. So I gotta get my boat list done! Or on second though if HiLiary or El Trumpo wins in November, maybe I will just head South early. This years Presidential election is the Republic's Kobayoshi Maru Test.
It's a shame that some who destroyed another thread came over to this thread to cause havic. The back and for the of discussion on this topic was healthy and even entertaining. Then came the trolls.

I wish you and your family well in your southern journeys. That cat pic by the was so cute.
__________________
GoingWalkabout is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 12:34   #2876
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,736
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
That's a false comparison.
... The thread IS about MMGW and the discussion is clearly about is it a true scientific occurrence or is it a fraud, a Scam...or as I believe a Cult. Now in this setting, where opinions are asked for it's absolutely appropriate to express your personal opinions...isn't that the entire point.
The bigger point is, why is a cruising/sailing forum yet another venue for those of a certain nationality and political stripe to go off about their opposition to AGW? It's not the "alarmists" starting these threads on CF. Aren't there enough bloody places to chew this over already?

Quote:
Now you may be insinuating that it's in poor taste to call someone a MMGW Cultist, you can make that argument, but be aware that at the same time then however, you would of course have to argue that it is in poor taste to call people MMGW Deniers...right...of course you would, but you haven't.
Taste went into the ditch in these threads many months ago. It's pointless and hardly instructive to be going on about your cult. Denial is... denial; sorry if you find the word offensive.

Quote:
You say that it's polite to steer clear of Religion and Politics, however the entire MMGWC movement is attempting to use Politics to push their agenda. That's a nice way to silence critics (almost as good as threatening jail and prosecution) but sorry Amigo, you can't use political correctness as a weapon, your feelings don't trump our political rights or expression.
Again - it's not the pro side starting these pointless threads on CF. There's no monolithic pro AGW cult, Rich, sorry. Leastwise, I haven't been getting the newsletter. And what agenda, Rich? This thread came closest to entertainment for me when some people were nudged into spewing their embarrassing paranoia about government conspiracies and 'agendas' that they could never quite make it to describing. Shades of Alex Jones.

It's not restricting free speech to ask people not to inflict a topic on a sailing forum where it's neither friendly nor relevant. It's respect and consideration. If those two things aren't too 'socialist' as concepts.
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 13:31   #2877
Marine Service Provider
 
SV THIRD DAY's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Morro Bay, CA
Boat: 1978 Hudson Force 50 Ketch
Posts: 3,353
Send a message via Skype™ to SV THIRD DAY
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

The education of LE continues...and I'm happy to help, besides I just put down anther layer of 1/2" ply encased in MAS Epoxy...so I have to wait till it dries enough to lay the next layer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
The bigger point is, why is a cruising/sailing forum yet another venue for those of a certain nationality and political stripe to go off about their opposition to AGW? It's not the "alarmists" starting these threads on CF. Aren't there enough bloody places to chew this over already?
I haven't started a MMGW Thread and as you should know as a participant in internet chat forums, once a thread is created it takes on a life of its own. Have you answered your own question? Why must the MMGWC post their beliefs on a Cruising site? Ah...now you get it...because we can and that's what freedom of expression is all about. Sharing opinions and being entertained with your friends. What...you want me to talk MMGW on a Quilting Forum...what do I have in common with them as a basis of the discussion? Here we are all the same...boaters Cruisers and I have an affinity for all and would take the shirt off my back for them as fellow boaters/cruisers so why wouldn't I and others want to talk and have fun with family?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Taste went into the ditch in these threads many months ago. It's pointless and hardly instructive to be going on about your cult. Denial is... denial; sorry if you find the word offensive.
Now personally I don't find any speech or opinion offensive, that's what really being Tolerant is all about, being open to listening to and hearing all points of view, remember. I also don't mind being called anything under the sun...see I'm secure enough in knowing the science and facts that it doesn't threaten me or upset me to be called a Denier...hater...you pick the insult de jour. Sticks and Stones...and I take it even further. I run a Business...I sell things to Cruisers, but does that mean I don't speak honestly and give my opinions even when/if they might piss others off and make them not buy something form me? No...Truth is truth and if it costs me product sells...well so what. See I have more to lose in speaking truth to the MMGWC than almost anyone else here...but still I stand on Truth.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Again - it's not the pro side starting these pointless threads on CF. There's no monolithic pro AGW cult, Rich, sorry. Leastwise, I haven't been getting the newsletter. And what agenda, Rich? This thread came closest to entertainment for me when some people were nudged into spewing their embarrassing paranoia about government conspiracies and 'agendas' that they could never quite make it to describing. Shades of Alex Jones.
The MMGWC operates like a school of bait fish. There is not one head giving commands or sending out a newsletter. The Cult gets direction from the others and follows the lead. It's how cults and movements work. It's also what makes them dangerous because there is no free thought, but only mass obedience to the whole and if you step out of line the sharks picks you off. just as every political movement has agendas and goals so does the MMGWC movement, and to deny it is to be so deep into it that the follower has lost his ability to see and report on reality as it. We try to throw them a Rope to pull them out of the Pit...but you can lead a horse to water...you know the rest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
It's not restricting free speech to ask people not to inflict a topic on a sailing forum where it's neither friendly nor relevant. It's respect and consideration. If those two things aren't too 'socialist' as concepts.
No one is forcing anyone to read or participate in this thread. In fact you can un-follow it and never see the radical free speech and ideas that happen here. It's a personal weakness to not like something and to complain about it, but then to participate in it anyway. As a very active participant and sudden critic of this thread...don't you see the irony in your positions? The MMGWC are attacking and threatening prosecution for Denier positions and beliefs..that my friend is pure Evil. You don't win an argument by killing, locking up or threatening the opposition, you win by convincing people that your argument, data and Science is correct. Those that dislike open discussion the most are those with things to hide.

Opps...Saturday pick up not needed from Football pratice...off I gooooo
__________________
Rich Boren Living Aboard in Morro Bay, CA and the owner of:
Cruise RO Water High Output Water
Technautic CoolBlue Refrigeration
SV THIRD DAY is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 16:11   #2878
Registered User
 
Udacha's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Arizona
Boat: Looking
Posts: 74
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

It's been amazing to me on this thread how the GW believers (non-scientist) argue and belittle actual scientist (non-believers)
I see a lot of graphs here supporting GW, but they only show the last 150 years, which is not even a blink. Here is one that goes back a bit further. The the little red part is the famous Hockey Stick, as you can see it is quite meaningless. If you actualy dig a little deeper and go back millions of years you will find that high co2 is a RESULT of warming not the cause.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gisp-last-10000-new.png
Views:	236
Size:	155.8 KB
ID:	129854  
__________________
Back when I used to go fast, I'm #11
https://youtu.be/_Y1cnZcGmFY
Udacha is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 16:12   #2879
Registered User
 
Udacha's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Arizona
Boat: Looking
Posts: 74
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

If you really want to get to the truth ----- Follow the MONEY

Here is a great video of scientist and professors explaining that if you don't follow the GW ideals you won't get funding

__________________
Back when I used to go fast, I'm #11
https://youtu.be/_Y1cnZcGmFY
Udacha is offline   Reply
Old 20-08-2016, 16:47   #2880
Registered User
 
adoxograph's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ 'ʇsɐoɔ ǝuıɥsuns
Boat: Landlocked right now.
Posts: 355
Images: 1
Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
No...Truth is truth and if it costs me product sells...well so what. See I have more to lose in speaking truth to the MMGWC than almost anyone else here...but still I stand on Truth.
Rich, all I have to say to this one is:

__________________

__________________
ďAs for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas, and land on barbarous coasts.Ē
― Herman Melville, Moby-Dick
adoxograph is offline   Reply
Closed Thread

Tags
arc, cooling, cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I love cruising because it teaches humility zboss General Sailing Forum 38 17-09-2014 19:38
A Boat Is Better than a Wife, Because . . . BlueWaterSail Off Topic Forum 94 20-02-2011 19:10
Current Strategies in Solar Power ? Roy M Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 47 18-07-2010 05:37
i'm Really a Tiller Guy, because i Like the Responsiveness of a Multihull... Pipeline Multihull Sailboats 2 08-01-2010 07:32
Men return to Mountains and to the Sea because.... JohnnyB Challenges 4 10-10-2008 08:48


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.