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Old 13-08-2016, 08:37   #2716
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Pricing carbon (taxes, credits, offsets) is using a straightforward market mechanism to produce a desired outcome. No different in principle from tax on booze or tobacco. Or tax breaks on oil exploration.

But yes there is already 'socialism' (of a corporate sort) in the pricing of fossil fuels. Fuel prices past and present have never fully accounted for the full cost of finding, refining, transporting and consuming them. It falls to governments and society to eat the costs for pollution and other negative outcomes. If you want to end socialism, end this government support for fossil fuels.
Sorry but your opening sentence is nonsensical. Carbon taxes are a mechanism, but not a free market mechanism. They are a socialist mechanism. As such anti business, and capital accumulation (that means allowing people to make and keep their money), anti free market and a serious distorter of the market place driven economics.

I always laugh when I see socialists dressing up their thievery in terms of capitalism. Just part of their deception. What else can you expect of people that use the force of law and regulations to steal from others.

Carbon taxing is a scheme to defraud and take money from the productive class in order to support the non working class.
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Old 13-08-2016, 09:03   #2717
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Except for the facts that you don't need smokes or booze to live .
You do however need the products made with petroleum .
A carbon tax is just that a tax levied by a government.
Also you are correct it is no different than taxes on smokes and booze. A way for the gov to fleece the people and the people actually think it is a good thing.


Just about everything you currently buy and use has pricing influenced by MANY factors, from supply and demand, to taxes, to whether a bomb went off in Libya last week. An extra dime on a gallon of gas for carbon might make you think just a tiny bit more about how much gas you need; it won't End Civilization As We Know It.

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Sorry but your opening sentence is nonsensical. Carbon taxes are a mechanism, but not a free market mechanism. They are a socialist mechanism. As such anti business, and capital accumulation (that means allowing people to make and keep their money), anti free market and a serious distorter of the market place driven economics.

I always laugh when I see socialists dressing up their thievery in terms of capitalism. Just part of their deception. What else can you expect of people that use the force of law and regulations to steal from others.
All taxes are socialist?

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Carbon taxing is a scheme to defraud and take money from the productive class in order to support the non working class.
Please, continue.
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Old 13-08-2016, 13:52   #2718
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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That's what loosers do when loosing an argument. Shut down the conversation. Kind of like the child who doesn't want to hear something and goes ahead and puts his finger in his ears and says lalalalala.

" No one would ever be able to convince me these negative, narrow minded thinkers had ever been scientists. Maybe as part of a team but never on their own".
Ya well talk about negative...this statement takes the cake doesn't it? I think what you're really pissed about is me calling BS on you having anything close to being a scientist. You just don't have that approach to the subject.

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Hi SV TD. Keep up the good fight. By the way, you used the term "way out of MMGWC". This got me thinking. Remembering the likes of people in the past who got caught up in Hara K and other Indian cults, it was necessary for many cult escapees to undergo serious deprogramming and therapy.

Don't you think the same or even more rigorous intervention and deprogramming is needed for the MMGWC cultists? Many may think that we are indeed dealing with something akin to international mass hysteria. Hysterical notions of impending doom and the need to convince others of their hyterical notions is by definition a certain symptom of mental illness that has progressed to the point of a serious psychosis.

We may have to look at spending more money on mental health care for the poor hyterical alarmists by diverting money away from projects currently funded as a result of their psychosis.

The study of mass psychosis and the mind of the psychoticlly deluded is a much more needed and important endeavor than using the tax system to divert resources into Solindra ventures.
...I'd say this is a little negative.

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Since you raised the issue of greenhouses. Funny how greenhouses are used to accelerate the growth of plants. And we all know that plants with those big Green leaves produce a lot oxygen. In fact they absorb Co2 and emit oxygen.

Instead of Governments trying to use greenhouse gas hysteria to extract more taxes why don't they put their collective minds and resources into reforestation accross the planet.

I have seen what Israel has done in turning desert into green fields and forests. Why not do this on a much larger scale in places like Nevada, Texas and Wyoming. As an example.

Why I'm against irrational and unsubstantiated hysteria masquerading as science I am a true environmentalist who believes a lot of good can come from greening the planet. And when I say greening the planet I don't mean being part of the communist green party who only attack the west while letting their brother comrades and fellow travelers off the hook.

Clean water, clean air and lots more trees. I'm all for it.
This is a great example of your cuckoo approach to science. " And we all know that plants with those big Green leaves produce a lot oxygen. In fact they absorb Co2 and emit oxygen". So therefore the more CO2 we produce the better off we are. Ya, your a scientist alright. And by the way...most of that was pretty negative also.

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
LOL. I think you are deflecting rather than reflecting.


Using the word deflecting as is used in mental health circles.
When you point a finger out, there is usually 3 pointing back at you. Oh...and that was alos negative, don't ya think?

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
I like definition of delusional. One important description left out is "the person who accepts highly questionable information and then prozyltises to others attempting to convert them to their dogma, belief, questionable "new facts". This type of delusion is often seen in cult members such as "the climate alarmist people".

Stu suggested a great book. I think it would work as a great first deprogramming primer for AGW cultists wishing to escape.

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds

https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary.../dp/1463740514
Good thing that wasn't negative also.

The point is and I have tried to make it before is both side of this argument have come to the place where no mater what "our side is right". So do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. Because when slandering starts happening, happiness usually stops.

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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
One other point regarding mass hysteria and global warming alarmists. It is they who started to say warming "deniers" are crazy.

It is usual in the case of a mental disorder such as a psychotic hysteric that they will be the first to think others are crazy.
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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
LOL. :big grin: You forgot to mention Art Belles shadow people. They are scarier than the zombies. Really sneaky monsters. Stay out of the shadows if your sensible. Be scared, be very scared.

By the way. I too am a real practicing scientist with a number of published patents. I also have commercial products I have invented that provide both benefits to society and to myself as a business person and scientist. Even now I am writing new important patents and have many more pending.

I take my hat off to you SV Third Day. Theoretical scientists sometimes get it right but usually just re hash what others have thought of. Not to many real original ideas come from these types. Applied scientists on the other hand who use science to actually conceive, create and build novel devices are my kind of scientist.

But what do I know. I'm just an applied scientist. Of course these theoretical teacher type scientists must understand things better than I.
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Old 13-08-2016, 20:45   #2719
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Me thinks he doth protest to much .
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Old 13-08-2016, 21:06   #2720
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
The point is and I have tried to make it before is both side of this argument have come to the place where no mater what "our side is right". So do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. Because when slandering starts happening, happiness usually stops.
And the point I have made over and over is that this thread is nothing but pure entertainment, there is no real science or data here.

You don't really assume to think that some cruising Bozos on a chat room actually give a rats ass about what other think about politics, Science, Religion or the basic scientific theory do you? It's like all the worthless FakeBook memes of a photo with a few words on it. It means nothing, does nothing except give the poster a false sense that they are "doing something" but in reality no one reading it, pushing the like button or unfriending the poor schlub actually cares.

But it's par for the Course these days to do fake online activism and think that it really matters. Post about the evils of Climate Change but then drive your car, buy products made form petroleum products, and justify it because you are better than some rich evil guy flying around in a Private Jet, heck you recycle that Starbucks cup...ha ha ha.

All of us here on Cf are in the Top 1% of the Worlds population in spewing evil CO2 to support our lifestyle yet, as a way to cleanse our guilt (the MMGW Cult indulgence) we feel compelled to take a public stance of wearing the USA flag pin, the AIDS Ribbon and say we are for saving the Planet and protecting our grand kids while the other guy...well that evil SOB wants to kill his kids and grand kids and club baby fur seals all because he doesn't want to TALK favorable about MMGW...not do anything real about it...but just SAY he supports it...ha ha ha ....hog wash...that's why it's a Cult.

Have Taxes Solved Poverty in the USA...nope it's the same % as before the War on Poverty...yet we are told if only pay $0.10 more for a gallon of gas we will save the world...halarious...absolutely halarious.
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Old 13-08-2016, 22:18   #2721
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Let me summarise this thread:

Climate change believer says: "My sandcastle is the real one and you are a poopoohead."

Climate change denier pees on the sandcastle and says: "Who is the poopoohead now?"

Climate change believer stomps the deniers castle to the ground: "I'll show you a pooopoohead."

Denier: "You are the poopoohead."

Believer: "No you are. My papa is a scientist."

Denier: "My papa is a better scientist that yours! You poopoohead!"

Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

Believer: "You are!"

Denier: "No you!"

Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

...

2000 post later


Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

And so on ...
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Old 13-08-2016, 22:53   #2722
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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Originally Posted by adoxograph View Post
Let me summarise this thread:

Climate change believer says: "My sandcastle is the real one and you are a poopoohead."

Climate change denier pees on the sandcastle and says: "Who is the poopoohead now?"

Climate change believer stomps the deniers castle to the ground: "I'll show you a pooopoohead."

Denier: "You are the poopoohead."

Believer: "No you are. My papa is a scientist."

Denier: "My papa is a better scientist that yours! You poopoohead!"

Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

Believer: "You are!"

Denier: "No you!"

Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

...

2000 post later


Believer: "You are a poopoohead!"

Denier: "No you are!"

And so on ...
Perfect thanx
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Old 14-08-2016, 01:17   #2723
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
One wonders what Charles MacKay would say about it if he were still been around?

https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary.../dp/1463740514
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Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout View Post
Thanks Stu. Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds. Haven't read that one but looks like it would be worth reading.
Can be read here for free (none of those Amazonian freeloading freemarket capitalists making money off a dead man's ideas for me):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Gfy19TapyfxTyA

or here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24518/24518-h/dvii.html


But be prepared, this is a work that was not very popular in it's time and has little value as a 'cure for delusional behavior'. Recommending this book as such would be akin to recommending someone read 'On the Origin of Species' to get an accurate grasp of the theory of evolution as it is understood today.

For some context and explanation of Mackay's work, it might be helpful to read this summation of his life and the 'Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds'.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...fSXmtX0hGNw4mA

One little nugget I found interesting about Charles Mackay was his opposition to the 1847 '10 Hours Bill' proposing that it be made illegal for children between the ages of 13-18 and women to work more than 10 hours a day. The bill however, passed. Maybe not surprisingly, there was no provision for men.

As for the --uh-- somewhat uneven criticism of my last post --should I,
--could I, ah what the hell



For some modern day discussion on delusional disorders, here's some information, in case either of you're interested:

Recent developments in the management of delusional disorders | BJPsych Advances

Taken from the above is this:

Many psychiatrists will rarely encounter a patient with true delusional disorder. It is a secretive condition and most people with it manage to avoid coming to the attention of services. Although this suggests a degree of insight or mindfulness, those who do present have often come into conflict with those around them on the basis of their incorrigible beliefs. The rarity of such patients in clinic practice is often compensated for by the strangeness of their circumstances, making them common as subjects for case presentations and curiosities in journals.

Delusional disorders are difficult and unrewarding to study. Individuals are reluctant to cooperate with treatment, often fail to take medication and can be frustratingly garrulous during therapy sessions. They offer endless evidence to support their beliefs while creating ever more elaborate ways of refuting evidence against them through appeals to coincidence, misunderstanding or alternative interpretations of the ‘facts’.
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Old 14-08-2016, 12:42   #2724
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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You don't really assume to think that some cruising Bozos on a chat room actually give a rats ass about what other think about politics, Science, Religion or the basic scientific theory do you? It's like all the worthless FakeBook memes of a photo with a few words on it. It means nothing, does nothing except give the poster a false sense that they are "doing something" but in reality no one reading it, pushing the like button or unfriending the poor schlub actually cares.
You care, obviously. The OPs must have cared, or somehow found it important to decorate CF with a few anti-AGW thread-starters.

Quote:
But it's par for the Course these days to do fake online activism and think that it really matters. Post about the evils of Climate Change but then drive your car, buy products made form petroleum products, and justify it because you are better than some rich evil guy flying around in a Private Jet, heck you recycle that Starbucks cup...ha ha ha.

All of us here on Cf are in the Top 1% of the Worlds population in spewing evil CO2 to support our lifestyle yet, as a way to cleanse our guilt (the MMGW Cult indulgence) we feel compelled to take a public stance of wearing the USA flag pin, the AIDS Ribbon and say we are for saving the Planet and protecting our grand kids while the other guy...well that evil SOB wants to kill his kids and grand kids and club baby fur seals all because he doesn't want to TALK favorable about MMGW...not do anything real about it...but just SAY he supports it...ha ha ha ....hog wash...that's why it's a Cult.
Again, who always starts these bullshit AGW/CC threads on CF? Not the pro-AGW advocates. What's so noble about professing ignorance and defiance of science? What's pushing your buttons? Why can't anyone express concern for the future, but smug self-satisfaction is A-Ok?

Quote:
Have Taxes Solved Poverty in the USA...nope it's the same % as before the War on Poverty...yet we are told if only pay $0.10 more for a gallon of gas we will save the world...halarious...absolutely halarious.
Ah, poverty. "Solving" is a far goal, but I don't think anyone would disagree that the US does support the least well-off Americans to a considerable extent, whether you acknowledge it or not. From taxes.

I have a theory hypothesis - I believe that just about all the first-world countries provide close to identical levels of support for their least well-off, except that in many countries (eg the Scandinavian countries), it's a natural part of governing, whereas in the US it's an inefficient hodge-podge of many local, state and federal programs and private charities, because genuises like you can't bear to think that ALL citizens should benefit from a country's good fortune.

The point of carbon pricing is:
  • deterrent to use
  • providing more funding for cleaning up the mess left by fossil-fuel use
  • using market mechanisms to lower overall emission levels
...saving the world hasn't yet made the list.

I still don't understand why it was ok for you to make your pile from government-mandated emissions reductions, but anything to counter AGW is a scam. YOUR religion contains some strange paradoxes, I guess.
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Old 14-08-2016, 16:12   #2725
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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... Ah, poverty. "Solving" is a far goal, but I don't think anyone would disagree that the US does support the least well-off Americans to a considerable extent, whether you acknowledge it or not. From taxes.

I have an theory hypothesis observation- I believe that just about all the first-world countries usually provide close to identical levels some form of support for their least well-off, except that in many countries (eg the Scandinavian countries), it's a natural part of governing, whereas in the US it's an inefficient hodge-podge of many local, state and federal programs and private charities, because genuises like you can't bear to think that ALL citizens should benefit from a country's good fortune...
fixed that for you

There is a positive side effect of helping the less fortunate: The need for crime in order to survive is reduced significantly for the "less fortunate".

However I'm afraid this will end up in a debate of individualism vs collectivism and Hofstede's cultural dimensions theory. Could be an interesting debate - or maybe not ... CF is not the right place ... OK let's not go there ...
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Old 14-08-2016, 16:48   #2726
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

When the two biggest factory carbon spewing country's in the world fail to abide by emission controls then the enforcement of such controls on much lesser manufacturing countries cause economic imbalance and worker injustice.

Funny how the AGW warriors make no protestations about China and India. Or perhaps it's not so funny and connected in some way to the anti-west movement.
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Old 14-08-2016, 17:18   #2727
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

I started this post with a legitimate question. Based primarily on wether the climate in the near future is going to be warmer or cooler.

No one had come up with even a suggestion as to the answer of this basic question.

If I have 10, 20 or even 30 years sailing life left in me, what should I expect and what should I be planning for?

A 2 degree change in global temperature averages over the next 20 or so years, isn't going to affect what I wear onboard one single iota.

So given no consensus other than the weather changes every season and different regions of the world have different climates their has not been one piece of evidence provided that suggests I should be concerned as a sailor.

As a personal observation. Some predictions of a decade ago would have us sailing and tying up our boats to buildings in downtown Manhattan and downtown Miami. I know of no marinas on the eastern seaboard who have had to raise their pilots because of AGW.

Because of past alarming predictions that have been proven so wrong, please forgive me that I don't readily accept the latest round of alarmism.

I will concentrate my mind on preparing for sailing the deep blue far from the maddening crowd.

Happy sailings too all of you. AGW types and those who aren't.
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Old 14-08-2016, 17:34   #2728
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

...and that folks brings us to the end of this thread. Goingwalkabout will now finally buy a boat and happily cruise off.

Nothing to see here folks...move along...nothing to see here
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Old 14-08-2016, 18:00   #2729
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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As a personal observation. Some predictions of a decade ago would have us sailing and tying up our boats to buildings in downtown Manhattan and downtown Miami. I know of no marinas on the eastern seaboard who have had to raise their pilots because of AGW.

Because of past alarming predictions that have been proven so wrong, please forgive me that I don't readily accept the latest round of alarmism.
I suspect the alarmist is predominantly in the media, the actual science tends to be full of error bars and near impossible for anyone not in the field to understand.

So go sailing, enjoy it and believe what you read the newspapers or websites .

We're all doomed anyway, us and the species, one way or another. So it goes.
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Old 14-08-2016, 19:28   #2730
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Re: Do we need to be preparing for Arctic cruising strategies because of Global Cooli

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I suspect the alarmist is predominantly in the media, the actual science tends to be full of error bars and near impossible for anyone not in the field to understand.

So go sailing, enjoy it and believe what you read the newspapers or websites .

We're all doomed anyway, us and the species, one way or another. So it goes.
I'm absolutely sure of one thing. The species is going to outlive this individual organism.
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