Cheoy Lee Offshore 40 yawl to --> sloop

[jakkum]

Originally Posted by heronspeak

Hello. I am not a rigger of any sort, but I am eyeing a Cheoy Lee Offshore 40 yawl and I would like some opinions.

I am not sure I would fly the mizzen much and it seems the second stick and boom make for dinghy crane overkill. The aft deck area could possibly be put to better use if the mizzen mast and rigging were eliminated. If a stern arch were designed right, that seems like a good option.

So, I know well enough that the calculations for the two rigs are obviously different and it would not really be wise to just take down the mizzen as noted and call it a sloop.

However, based on the information I can find online, the one less alterable difference between the two configurations is the main mast on the yawl is about 4 inches further aft than the sloop. Apart from that, the boom on the sloop is about a foot longer, which seems like an easy fix. Otherwise the rig dimensions look to be identical.

My question then is would it be wise to eliminate the mizzen, get a longer boom, and call it good? All of this would be done under the supervision of a qualified rigger... I'm just speculating right now.

And I have never sailed a yawl. Perhaps I would find it to be the bee's knees, but really it doesn't seem like enough of an advantage in balancing the boat under sail to be worth it. A ketch might be a different story. Given that nobody builds yawls anymore, this seems like a valid take.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

P.S. I am aware of all of the other characteristics of a CL Offshore 40. Some advantages, some weaknesses... and I would buy the boat if everything checks out. Even if it were to remain a yawl.

Did you sail her Just without the mizzen?

[Chris Cringle]

The delicate, graceful, and beautiful yawl rig developed before "yachtsmen" felt a grinding need to load down the stern of their yachts with dinghy davits, radar arches, outboard brackets, fender racks, GPS antennas, AIS antennas, SSB antennas, radar antennas, loud-hailers, GO-PRO cameras, search lights, fishing rod holders, gaff holders, deck brush holders, strereo speakers, VHF remote speakers, and other essential "must haves".

[sail sfbay]

Why a yawl or ketch instead of a sloop?

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/w...a-sloop.27141/

[Lazerbrains]

Originally Posted by Hene

However, we were glad that we had wooden spars when we were in the Queen's Birthday Storm in 1994, because we felt that their slowed our roll, and improved our righting moment.

That's a story I would love to hear sometime. When you say "she took care of us", you're not kidding around. Many a solid cruising boat was lost in that storm.

[heronspeak]

Wow, Carol. What an incredibly informative response! Thank you so much for taking the time.

Of course, I haven't even had a chance to view the boat in person yet, but in any case I would plan to leave the rig intact provided it is sound and just sail it as is for a while to see if I like it or if I think I would be better served without the mizzen.

The ultimate goal is to go offshore, so perhaps I would be glad to have the mizzen available. Also, I would likely be either solo or short-handed so I take your points about anchoring, etc.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Hene

My late husband and I had a Cheoy Lee Offshore 40 for 30 years, including four years cruising in Mexico, a 13-year circumnavigation (too fast) and another trip to Mexico after that. She had wooden masts, which are heavy, but after returning from our circumnavigation, we stripped the paint off, splined the cracking seams, and repainted. We had mixed feelings about the mizzen mast.

Yes, that is a lot of weight back there, and the clutter of shrouds on a slender afterdeck was a nuisance when setting a stern anchor, taking a line ashore, or adjusting the wind vane (until my husband installed a fitting for a control line that led all the way to the bridge deck).

However, we liked the mizzen for a lot of reasons. It's a great place to hang a mizzen staysail, which adds at least an extra half knot of speed on a broad reach,
and is easy to deploy. Of course, its halyard is useful for lifting the outboard off the dinghy, though an arch or a motor-lift davit could easily replace that function.

Our favorite thing about the mizzen was how much easier it made anchoring, and how much fun it was to sail off the anchor without using the engine. Flattening the mizzen kept the bow into the wind when setting the anchor, whether under sail or motor. When leaving an anchorage, particularly a crowded one, we could control which way the bow would fall when the anchor came up by lashing the mizzen boom to a mizzen shroud with a sail stop (slip knot so that it was quickly removable). Either one of us could anchor or sail out of an anchorage single-handed. Though I preferred having the engine ticking along in neutral, that original engine (still in the boat and fifty years old) had several rebuilds in our 30 years and it was nice to know that we could do without it when we had to.

When we splined the masts, we did the mizzen first, and, while it was out, sailed down to China Camp in San Francisco Bay with some other boats from our marina. Returning from a picnic on the beach, we had trouble "seeing" our boat on a sunny afternoon. The mizzen was so much a part of her that we didn't recognize her, and when we finally did, she just didn't look "right".

Finally, we generally only sailed with "jib and jigger" on windy daysails with timid friends aboard. However, our good friend, Ben Stavis, was on his way back from Bermuda board his Reliant, Astarte, and encountered some heavy weather. Like us, he had an inner forestay for a storm jib, and deployed that, a storm trysail, and a double-reefed mizzen. He continued to make reasonable progress toward home with that sail configuration.

Whether you keep the mizzen or not would depend on the kind of sailing you intend to do. If you are going to do a lot of cruising, and anchor a lot, I would suggest that you keep it. If you are going to spend most of your time daysailing, racing, or in a marina, the extra windage and clutter on the after deck probably wouldn't be worth it.

Regarding the wood/aluminum choice: a friend in San Francisco Bay did get aluminum spars, and said that his boat was both stiffer and faster than when she had wood ones. This is certainly a point for aluminum. Also, re-painting wooden masts every few years in the tropics is tedious! However, we were glad that we had wooden spars when we were in the Queen's Birthday Storm in 1994, because we felt that their slowed our roll, and improved our righting moment.

That odd cabin arrangement worked very well at sea; the longship galley meant that the cook didn't have to stand to leeward of the stove, and the quarter berths by the engine compartment were great sea berths. We didn't have a second ladder, but had a sliding hatch and could climb below over the chart table if it was too rough or we were in a hurry. Cheoy Lee did build the Offshore 40 (but not the Reliant) with different cabin arrangements, and we met a few in our travels. They were all more open and modern. Our boat took good care of us, and when it was time to sell her, I am glad it was to someone who wanted to "restore" her, and has done a lot more varnish, replaced the cockpit teak, etc.

If you get that Offshore 40, I hope you enjoy her as much as we did ours, but do be prepared for some extra maintenance.

Carol

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

The delicate, graceful, and beautiful yawl rig developed before "yachtsmen" felt a grinding need to load down the stern of their yachts with dinghy davits, radar arches, outboard brackets, fender racks, GPS antennas, AIS antennas, SSB antennas, radar antennas, loud-hailers, GO-PRO cameras, search lights, fishing rod holders, gaff holders, deck brush holders, strereo speakers, VHF remote speakers, and other essential "must haves".

So, where do you yawlists put such gear? Perhaps as purists you don't need all of those many items, but most cruisers do want some of them... I know I do?

And do remember that many of the American yawl designs were not made for aesthetics or delicacy or seaworthiness, but because under the CCA racing rules there was unrated sail area available in such rigs and thus a perceived advantage whilst racing.

IIRC it was Rod Stevens who said "give me an axe and I can improve both the appearance and the performance of a yawl" despite S&S designing plenty of yawl rigged yachts. Another case of the customer is always right, perhaps.

Finally, I'm not a split rig enthusiast in our sized boats, but I've always thought Ketches looked OK but on true yawls the mizzen looks like an afterthought, not like an effective part of the sail plan. YMMV!

Jim

[heronspeak]

LOL! Thank you for your input, Jim. I usually just let people go on about the merits of a split rig because there is no "Right" answer with a capital "R." To each their own.

And my general inclination about a yawl is the mizzen seems like a bit of an afterthought and can be eliminated without much (if any) sacrifice in performance or comfort. Solid wood spars as in the boat in question (however beautiful to some) add a lot of weight, which might be nice to eliminate as well.

So in my original post the question was whether it would be possible to eliminate the mizzen and associated rigging to clean up and re-purpose the aft deck of the boat without screwing up the rig in general. The answer to that question appears to be "yes." In this case there doesn't appear to be a great deal of difference in the calculations between the sloop and yawl versions of the boat.

So I would be free to pile on a stern arch, radar, barbeque, et al... along with such luxuries as auxiliary power (diesel), self-tailing winches, roller furling... oh the humanity! But then the non-purists among us know no limits, apparently.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, where do you yawlists put such gear? Perhaps as purists you don't need all of those many items, but most cruisers do want some of them... I know I do?

And do remember that many of the American yawl designs were not made for aesthetics or delicacy or seaworthiness, but because under the CCA racing rules there was unrated sail area available in such rigs and thus a perceived advantage whilst racing.

IIRC it was Rod Stevens who said "give me an axe and I can improve both the appearance and the performance of a yawl" despite S&S designing plenty of yawl rigged yachts. Another case of the customer is always right, perhaps.

Finally, I'm not a split rig enthusiast in our sized boats, but I've always thought Ketches looked OK but on true yawls the mizzen looks like an afterthought, not like an effective part of the sail plan. YMMV!

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Yep, I think that you can sail with the mizzen removed and no other alterations like a longer boom will be truly required. But I'm no expert on those boats... however, do pay attention to what Carol (Hene) says, for she's been there and done that... lots of miles in an offshore 40.

I remember all too well talking on the radio to her and her mate Sig during the Queens B'day storm. They were riding well but getting a LOT of water below via the cockpit lockers (and other sources). They were in strife but managing, with enough left over to be involved in trying to help other victims of the storm. Notably Quartermaster, who disappeared with not a trace a few hours later. One of the grimmest times of my life, and I was safe in Opua!

The O 40 is a tough boat, but at this stage of life may represent a huge chore to put right, so go into any purchase with very wide eyes and a firm hand on the checkbook. One thing to be wary of is any original wiring that may have survived... it was pretty agricultural on those boats!

Good luck with the scheme,

Jim

[Chris Cringle]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, where do you yawlists put such gear? Perhaps as purists you don't need all of those many items, but most cruisers do want some of them... I know I do?



Jim

I admit to being an 'Old Geezer' I can remember when there were debates in the sailing magazines and around the yacht club bar as to whether putting an engine in a sailboat was an act of vandalism. I recall "boat for sale" ads mentioning that the boat was made of fiberglass because , at that time, most weren't. I did my world cruising (25 years, all oceans) in a gaff-rigged North Sea pilot ketch which was NOT made of fiberglass. The sextant on board was not 'nautical decor'. So my view of today's gear packed, rally/cruisers is somewhat skewed.

[Tayana42]

I met Sigmund at Isthmus Cove at Catalina Island, Carol was in San Francisco at the time. I watched him sail on and off anchor alone. And he brought his boat under sail along side mine so I could step off my deck onto his with ease. He was in his eighties then, I think, and handled his boat like it was a part of him. He used the mizzen as naturally as a bird adjusting its wings and tail. My wife and I enjoyed our time with him on our boat and on his. He was a great sailor and a truly interesting man. He was, at that stage exploring his interest in the visual arts and we talked endlessly about drawing and painting and seeing light on water. It was an encounter of only a few weeks but an enduring friendship. We corresponded by email for several more years. I think of him often still.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Chris Cringle

I admit to being an 'Old Geezer' I can remember when there were debates in the sailing magazines and around the yacht club bar as to whether putting an engine in a sailboat was an act of vandalism. I recall "boat for sale" ads mentioning that the boat was made of fiberglass because , at that time, most weren't. I did my world cruising (25 years, all oceans) in a gaff-rigged North Sea pilot ketch which was NOT made of fiberglass. The sextant on board was not 'nautical decor'. So my view of today's gear packed, rally/cruisers is somewhat skewed.

Hi Chris,

I'm likely as geezerified as you are, and also started out passage making using celestial. You likely started sailing before I did (late 1960s) and I've never made a passage on a gaffer of any sort, so I respect your opinions on situations I've never experienced. None the less, I've racked up 35 years of full time cruising and a few miles as well, and I surely have developed some opinions of my own.

But I still don't appreciate the alleged joys of a yawl rig, either aesthetically or functionally, and your posts haven't explained why I, or the OP, should do so. Maybe you could elaborate on the advantages of the rig and why the OP should not alter the O-40 if he ends up buying her.

Jim

[heronspeak]

Yes, it would be interesting to hear an opinion about why a yawl would be so far superior to a sloop. Of course, Carol above mentioned some points as to why it might be an asset, which I appreciate.

IMHO, whatever the boat, you get used to how it handles over time. One day would I be able to maneuver a sloop as well as the friend Chris mentioned handled his yawl? Perhaps or perhaps not. A fair amount of that would come down to seamanship... which it is possible I would never be able to accomplish at the same level even with a yawl.

As to aesthetics, I honestly don't give a wit about opinions on that when it comes to my boat. There are ALWAYS going to be arguments and counter-arguments which only ever result in wasted oxygen. There are people who actually like the new Junetteauria floating condo boats with their interiors by IKEA, if you you can imagine.

In my mind's eye, I could design a hard dodger that fits with the lines of the boat (quite a task given the forward arrangement of the companionway), replace the main mast and boom with aluminum painted white and rigged with dyneema, eliminate the mizzen, and add a tastefully-designed arch on the stern (which would weigh less than the mizzen and thus end up saving weight over all).

Now, all of the above changes would add up to a near perfect boat for me whereas (accepting no liability here) I may have just sent some of the purists among us to the floor in cardiac arrest. (I hope not)

In any case, I really appreciate the discussion and input.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Hi Chris,

I'm likely as geezerified as you are, and also started out passage making using celestial. You likely started sailing before I did (late 1960s) and I've never made a passage on a gaffer of any sort, so I respect your opinions on situations I've never experienced. None the less, I've racked up 35 years of full time cruising and a few miles as well, and I surely have developed some opinions of my own.

But I still don't appreciate the alleged joys of a yawl rig, either aesthetically or functionally, and your posts haven't explained why I, or the OP, should do so. Maybe you could elaborate on the advantages of the rig and why the OP should not alter the O-40 if he ends up buying her.

Jim

[Lazerbrains]

Originally Posted by heronspeak

Yes, it would be interesting to hear an opinion about why a yawl would be so far superior to a sloop.

I've never owned a yawl, but I do remember reading Adler Coles spending quite a few paragraphs in favor of them (they were out of fashion at the time of his writing). He liked that the mizzen could be easily and quickly dropped from the cockpit, and was the equivalent of a first reef. He liked that the mizzen had it's own rigging without a triatic stay - he felt that the advantage of this was in the event of a dismasting, the mizzen would still be standing and give some modicum of control and means of propulsion. He also praised it's ability to be a "balancing sail", could be used as an anchor riding sail, and in heavy weather was useful with a staysail to go "jib and jigger". But he admitted that his favorite reason was that he simply "likes the look of a yawl rig". I agree with him, I think yawls are beautiful, and he makes good points in favor of them. The one thing that would worry me about having one is they seem unable to be used with a steering vane, due to the overhang of the mizzen boom.

[MicHughV]

correct me if I'm wrong....but the "yawl" rig became popular as a "rule beater"...I can't recall all the ins and outs of this, but it apparently added unpenalized sail area......seem to recall a classic American yawl using this feature to good advantage..."Dorade" I believe...

[Patrigo]

I was crew on a 1926 Alden Yawl in the early seventies, between NZ, Fiji, New Hebrides and New Caledonia. We did not use the Mizzen much, but I did find a helpful use for the rig. When on watch, an arm around a lee mizzen shroud was a comfortable and safe way to take a leak.