More Men-and-Women Issues

[anjou]

Ive thought of that Gord. On the one hand, why not?

Lets face it, the majority of people tell varying amounts of lies in their CVs, (or are economial with the truth) and if I have taught myself to do a particular task or learned a skill, why shouldnt I issue myself with the paperwork to varify and show that? University of Amy, Diploma, Degree, Certificate of competance etc........

On the other hand, I cannot be assed to faff about telling lies or playing games, im more than a piece of paper, I am the living embodiment of my abilities, good or bad.

I think we all know what our response would be when the **** hits a fan and our life is on the line, say in a car crash. A rescuer shows up who has experience but no paper. Would you send them away and wait for someone with qualifications?

When im in a feisty mood, I like to reply to the qualification question with my own question. Do you have children? If so, show me YOUR qualification to be their parent. And thats a far more important job.

Im not sure if you have 'The Apprentice' in other countries but it started here a few years ago. Rags to riches, self made man, Alan Sugar takes 16 candidates and whittles them down to one winner, who will become his apprentice and make a 6 figure salary.

They are mostly in their early-mid 20s and claim to be directors, executives and senior managers of companies they either work for or own. Their alleged experience is vast and successful. Hard to believe in people so young. The final 3 candidates are closely interogated by experts and thats when the lies realy show. One guy claimed ho owned a global marketing company. It turned out his office was his bedroom in his parents home, and his 'global associates' were family members who lived around the world, all working from their bedrooms.

You also have to ask, if they are so damn clever and good, why are they competing for a job with Sir Alan.
Those types are just full of shyte and im not one of them.

[anjou]

This is an amusing illustration.
22 years ago, it was a friends 40th birthday. Her hubby wanted her to have a surprise party and while he took her shopping for the day, a group of us went to their house to get everything ready. A woman I didnt know asked if I would put the letters on the cake which would spell 'Happy Birthday'

So I started with a P in the middle and worked evenly both ways to get the word 'HAPPY' symetrical on the cake top. I barely gave it a thought as it seemed the only way to do it yet the woman looked over my shoulder and asked with surprise if I was a Graphic Designer.

WTF? Is it only a graphic type person who has the sense to do that?
It sure made me glad I live in my world and not hers.

[Charlie]

Originally Posted by anjou

Hi all
Ive not been on CF since this thread started cos the whole damn thing has got me down.
The guy who started all this crap off called me late on Friday night, even though he said he wouldnt call me again. What he said next told me im right but it still doesnt sit well.
Even though I told him from the start I wasnt interested in a relationship, sexual or otherwise, hes pushed it in that direction and ive had to back away because of it. Now hes chasing me again. It all comes down to the fact ive turned him down and he doesnt like it, his pride is hurt, even though hes done it to himself. His final words were the insult many women encounter. If a woman turns a man down she must be a lesbian. Ironically, ive had a few encounters but thats got nothing to do with this.
Why does this always have to end the same way? If a woman has the last word, knows more or can do better than a man, he accuses her of being less than 'all woman'

Anyway, over the weekend, ive had yet more boat visitors, some havent seen it before but I get the same reaction. They think im part genius, part miracle. I disagree, and whilst I occasionally praise myself, im usually modest.

Money has become an issue lately and I need to get a job. Im crap at selling myself and havent got a clue. Ive done a lot of things over the last 30 ish years but have little paperwork to show for it. Im not a qualifications type person, the way I see it is you can either do the job or you cant, a qualification can be designed and printed off in 10 mins or bought. It holds little merit to me.

So I sent my CV to an agancy this morning, asking for help in identifying where my best opportunities lie. Ive just had the call back. The guy said they cant help. Im too experienced in too many fields for them to focus on or point me at one sector of the work place. In short, im unemployable in the mainstream world.

Now I dont know what percentage of the population can do what I do, just say its 5%, surely that makes me rare and sought after, not unemployable. I went to them for their specialist knowledge of staff recruitment, yet they cannot help.

This is turning into life crisis counselling I know, but I only wanted to let off some steam.

I have to get answers from people over the phone for my work. It is essential. The technique that works for me is to always be excessively nice. (Even when someone is being an idiot) Once you know that the person can't think there way out of a wet paperback call back and get someone else on the phone. Most employees know how to put X in the box marked X. Eventually you get someone who likes a challenge and can help you. I am not a qualification person either. When I have applied for jobs I had to tailor my resume so that it fit what the people were looking for. Good luck.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by anjou

If you were in my life with that attitude, you would be minus your meat and two veg.

THAT was funny!

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by defjef

Relationships are difficult as interests, and desires, need to mesh and compliments... and there are so many of them... it almost always involves compromise. The concept is great, but unless you seriously alter your *wish list* expectations, and so forth... these will come back to haunt you. People need to grow together on a shared path... not as easy as it sounds.

Now devoted sailors (cruiser types) all share the *competence thing*... they are good at all sorts of activities... sailing, navigation, and maintaining all the systems on a boat... and that's fairly complex. Men seem to adapt well to that level of mechanical pursuits...

Many relationships work because there is a complimenting of roles... and this is a notion many accept and grow comfortable. He is the earner, the fixer and she is the care giver, the cook, blah blah blah. He is masculine... she is feminine. This is the prevailing paradigm. And it can work for sailing couples. But it's really not the best way. Yes it does relieve skipper from, for example, preparing meals.. or cleaning (traditional female roles)... but this is quite different than sharing ALL roles.... which offers a kind of redundancy.

With the rise of the feminist paradigm.. many women have jumped into all the traditional male jobs and roles. All of course except altering their "gender qualities". This often creates a kind of cognitive dissonance... people want to be in the new paradigm on one hand and the other at other times... or simultaneously! This is a difficult conflict for both males and females to resolve in some of the modern type relationships. it's no longer a male dominant - female dominant paradigm.. but a male AND female dominant one. No leader follower... two leaders! YIKES

If the legacy roles were not lurking there is the background this should not be a problem... it would be like two dominant competent males sharing a boat, the responsibilities - a boat share partnership. But when the common sexual paradigm is considered it usually being male dominant and female submissive (sorry for the shorthand)... the modern dominant - dominant paradigm has to be set aside. YIKES... turning on and off paradigms constantly is rather difficult to pull off.

What to do? You need to partner up within one paradigm or you and she be a good paradigm switchers... something few can do.

Some I suppose establish clear roles for various aspects of their relationships... She may be in new paradigm for *work*... sailing duties and so forth... but when it comes to *romance* they revert to the old paradigm.. or *another one*.

I've dated... many years ago.. a women who was very capable, fixed things, loved to do all the mechanical things, but was also very feminine and *blonde*. She could jump between roles. She was a rare bird. Most of the sailor gals I met and respect, have abandoned their *feminine side*. This doesn't mean they aren't physically attractive or look and dress like males.... but it means that the more traditional fem roles no longer interest them... they seem to have moved pretty much to being strong independent career oriented not family or nesting oriented women.

I'm not going to pass judgment on any of the female sailors on CF... they all sound great to me...nor the men. When sailing/cruising becomes a lifestyle or central focus of your life, male and or female it most defintely will skew the traditional paradigm of male female roles. It can work... but both parties need to be mindful of what this entails... and that means re alignment of gender role/responsibility/duties expectations.

Are you saying I can't wear make-up if I can work on my engine?

[zeehag]

the engine dont care if ye wear war paint......

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by zeehag

the engine dont care if ye wear war paint......

Engines and women? I thought we were talking about men and women. We had a long explanation about socialization, including that people who "confuse" culturally assigned roles maybe are part of the problem. So I'm thinking I have to look like a manly female when I'm working on the boat.

My thoughts can be dismissed as me being "too sensitive," as already has happened, or we can look at the real issues. It is usually low-level under-current, but it's there. For instance, the guy who was pressing with all his might against my bow AFTER the engine had been in neutral for a full minute, my "instant bow and stern spring line" had been clipped on, if I'd put the boat in full forward it couldn't have gone anywhere.

The funny thing about this is that HE showed me HIS "instant spring line" -- one line that clips to one place on the boat (I have a Hunter, so I can put a catch for the carabiner anywhere I want on the toe rail). I took his advice and put the line up. All he had to do was open his eyes and he would have recognized his own advice at work in my slip. He would have known the boat couldn't possibly go anywhere.

The good men here don't recognize how often women sailors are treated as second class sailors because they don't do it. But the woman who experiences it over and over will have an entirely different head count.

So this guy is sure I can't put my boat in the slip without hitting the sea wall. Another guy is amazed that I can steer the boat into the slip. Someone else is amazed that I know the fuel is sprayed in a fine mist into the diesel engine. Someone else is surprised that I know how my chart plotter works. Another person is certain I can't read a chart. I've kept my eyes open, and I don't see this happening to the men. Each instance was a different man, but it all comes down to the same thing "She knew that (basic) thing? Wow!" (I bet she knows the aphabet, too!)

Someone the other day made sure "I knew" to go between the green and red markers. No, I'm not kidding.

I'm done now. My guess is that someone will dismiss what I'm saying instead of recognizing that it happens. It's not "man bashing." It's just a report of what happens.

[anjou]

I know just what you mean.
I usually make a rough sketch of something I want to make and often do it on the floor, a wall or scrap of paper, just like the old 'back of an envelope' phrase.

A woman called to see 'Boat' back in the winter and when she saw the wall sketches for a wiring diagram, the plumbing layout and various other bits like the galley lockers she was so excited and almost confused all at once.

The way she was banging on about how fantastic and amazing it was, you would think she just discovered some pre historic cave paintings.

I dont know where people get these mis conceptions from but here at ground level, this is how stuff gets done. No fancy drawing office with AUTOCAD, just the raw edge of construction, made up as it goes along. Of course, I do cheat. I use power tools, but hey, why not, everyone else does.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by hummingway

I've been a penniless wanderer and I've had a very high paying job and gone back to being a poor musician whose most valuable asset is his boat. I have found this to be something many women can't fathom. Another form of socialization in my opinion but I think that if you're not happy then what's the point?

For every idiot man who feels compelled to say something tactless and stupid like "that's a good job...for a woman" as if having ovaries rendered women unfit for technical labour, there's an idiot woman who will reject a man who doesn't need to make a lot of money because he's extremely handy and doesn't need to equate his manliness with the thickness of his wallet.

In sum, shallow, rigidly programmed idiots come in both sexes. For good measure, I've also met racist homosexuals and homophobic activists of colour. Irony is absent from their self-awareness diet, it seems.

I notice in the back of my Scientific American magazine subscription is an ad for a computer romance service geared to lab technicians, scientists and generally brainy types, who often lack or choose not to display the sort of social graces that get you into relationships. Perhaps it's time for a dating service for "handy, technically oriented people"? Start with engineers (I know a female dam/waterworks engineer who has a great deal of trouble getting respect from her peers) and include mechanics, boat-builders, fibreglassers and cabinet-makers.

Maybe it's because the women in my family always worked, and I worked for women early on, but I am in the opposite situation than the pinheaded men described here: not only do I expect women to be capable, I insist on it. Some decorative bit of arm candy holds very little interest for me; it's the trades that turn me on, baby!

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

The good men here don't recognize how often women sailors are treated as second class sailors because they don't do it. But the woman who experiences it over and over will have an entirely different head count.

This seems a rather bold statement. Most of us over a certain age will have grown up with endemic prejudice of all sorts, including a blanket assessment of women and their abilities. Anyone who is a regular reader of this forum will also be aware how women are percieved as sailors, always with the exception of those who write on this forum. Personally I see evidence that sexual, racial and national prejudices abound in this world, however much it may have changed from when I was a child. Of course it is easy to suggest I would have no idea how often you are treated in this manner since it would be very hard to quantify.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I'm done now. My guess is that someone will dismiss what I'm saying instead of recognizing that it happens. It's not "man bashing." It's just a report of what happens.

I must have missed the part where people were suggesting it didn't happen.

[zeehag]

we each earn our own respect--i think anjou met a jerk who respects not himself.....therefore, cannot respect anyone else, much less a WOMAN!!!! omg-- anjou=---RUN LIKE HELL and enjoy your so awesome life!!!!

[hummingway]

Good call Zee.

[MarkSF]

"Now I know British people are rather behind much of the world when it comes to gender equality, unless its war time, when there are no job rules, but in peace time, women dont do overtly masculine jobs, and if they do, aspersions are made as to their sexuality and true gender."

I know that most British people seem to see it as their duty to put the country down whenever possible, so I looked around for actual gender equality figures. Seems that Britain is rated 13th out of 113 countries for gender equality :

UK slips further down global gender equality league | Society | The Guardian

It's score of 74% compares reasonably to the absolute best score of 84%, especially when you consider that most of the world lives in countries with scores of pretty much nil.

"Most of the world" by population lives in China, India, and Africa. Maybe a few years spent in Yemen would put life in Britain into perspective.

Sorry but I will not sit by and see my homeland unfairly insulted.

[Sandero]

Anjou,

Can't fight city hall. Britain has some strong points and bad ones too. Nice place to visit, but not one I'd choose to live. I'd look for away to take your values somewhere you feel more comfortable... or where being a foreigner your *idiosyncrasies* might tolerated. That sounds harsh... but Jolly Old is not going to change any time soon. Finish the boat and sail south to the Carib or some similar... the Canaries?

I'll bet you'd get help if you asked from CFers.

[SaucySailoress]

Originally Posted by anjou

A I had a cordless drill in my hand and held it against his ass and pulled the trigger. He jumped and the other guy asked if I had touched him with my cock.

So, I'm guessing (hoping) that the cordless drill didn't have a drill bit attached?