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Old 01-02-2019, 13:27   #76
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
Why can't you either shield them better or move them up higher?

A logical question.


Higher is not possible -- the sidelights are on the pulpit.



Moving them somewhere to the shrouds could be better, but huge PITA to reroute the wires -- including even putting them through the deck -- bleh.


I think I will just keep using the tricolour, although I have had bad experiences with it being seen.


I do broadcast AIS.
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Old 01-02-2019, 13:42   #77
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

"8% of the male population has a colour vision defect. ... will not be able to pick orange from red."

Which is why we don't use orange as an additional traffic or nav light, probably. But it doesn't at all bear on the issue here. Anyone, regardless of color, will say "Oh, there's a sailboat deck over there!" and the color it appear to be won't matter.

The first time I saw trawlers at sea using the same big orange sodium vapor lights that are used in parking lots, my first reaction was WTF?? Why are there street lights all the way out here?? And if they were running any nav lights at all, the glare from the sodium lights overhead totally wiped those out.

Comply with COLREGS to comply with COLREGS. Light up the boat with whatever works best for you. Deck lights, cabin lights, fire pits...it may not replace AIS but it certainly lets anyone who is keeping a proper watch know "There's another boat out there" and the rest is, after all, on them.
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Old 01-02-2019, 14:57   #78
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Discussion here of colour-blind observers is a bit of a red herring.

Colorblindness affects 8% of males and 0.5% of females. Yes males are over represented on the water but not so much that you can completely ignore the female statistics. Also it’s regionally differentiated. Let’s ignore that and stick with the 8% as a worst case.

There are different forms of colorblindness including one, Achromatopsia, where no color or almost no color is seen. Fortunately it is pretty rare, 1:30-50,000. Makes me a statistical anomaly because I know someone with that strain.

Whatever. The men that have the orange-red confusion are 1% of the male population So my use of orange lights around my hull is only going to be a problem for less than 1% of people on the water.

That’s not a big problem compared to the 6-7% who can’t distinguish red-green and won’t be able to figure out anybody’s regular lights let alone any extras.

http://www.colourblindawareness.org/...our-blindness/

Finally, it’s a non-issue for commercial vessels. The USCG won’t issue watchstanding tickets to folks with colorblindness. Waivers are issued but such are limited to daytime only. I can’t imagine any other nation having a significantly different policy in issuing tickets.
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Old 01-02-2019, 17:00   #79
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Anyone who thinks it is OK to chop and change what lights they show should read this... https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/25004/mair12_001.pdf

That is what can happen when a ship thinks you are something that you are not.....

Even in this day and age most ships have rather unsophisticated bridges and the OOW doesn't spend his time glued to an AIS display... in fact it is most probably the thing he refers to least of all.

Moving right along .... anyone who thinks that all lights look white at a distance should be getting their eyes tested.

Finally.... I've had extensive conversations with 'yachtsmen' about all this over the years and the vast majority demonstrate a lamentable lack of understanding of the rules and their application. The ones who think they know what they are talking about are the most dangerous.
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Old 02-02-2019, 02:24   #80
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Anyone who thinks it is OK to chop and change what lights they show should read this... https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/25004/mair12_001.pdf

That is what can happen when a ship thinks you are something that you are not.....

Even in this day and age most ships have rather unsophisticated bridges and the OOW doesn't spend his time glued to an AIS display... in fact it is most probably the thing he refers to least of all.

Moving right along .... anyone who thinks that all lights look white at a distance should be getting their eyes tested.

Finally.... I've had extensive conversations with 'yachtsmen' about all this over the years and the vast majority demonstrate a lamentable lack of understanding of the rules and their application. The ones who think they know what they are talking about are the most dangerous.



The cited case (Lysaght Endeavor/Grunter collision) is really useful reading for anyone who thinks that nav lights are "obsolete" or nothing to take seriously.


AIS is great, and where I sail, I've never knowingly encountered a commercial vessel which wasn't watching AIS, but it may be very different in less civilised parts of the world, and in any case, AIS has no official status whatsoever, and is merely supplemental to showing the correct nav lights, which is a legal obligation.



White lights are particularly dangerous because they look like stern lights and may give an entirely incorrect impression about what kind of crossing is taking place -- like in this case.






Concerning "chopping and changing nav lights" -- I'm not sure what Ping was referring to, but changing the position of nav lights is perfectly fine so long as they fulfill the legal standard. The Rules specify where they can be mounted, and what angle of view they must have. Sidelights may be mounted anywhere, where they are visible from right forward back to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam (Rule 21(b)). Larger sailing vessels often have them on the shrouds, which seems to me to be a better position than in the pulpit. Sidelights (for a vessel of less than 20m) can be placed at any height which is at least 1m less than the height of the masthead light (Annex 1, 2(h)).


The Rules specify MINIMUM visibility, but there is nothing at all wrong with increasing this, and on the contrary, I think that the minimum visibility allowed for vessels under 20m is pathetic, and in the age of LED nav lights where power consumption is no longer an issue, I think everyone would benefit from using 3-mile side lights like the AquaSignal Series 44 ones.


If Ping is talking about non-standard lights, then of course I agree with him. Note Rule 20(b):



The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.


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Old 02-02-2019, 04:41   #81
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The cited case (Lysaght Endeavor/Grunter collision) is really useful reading for anyone who thinks that nav lights are "obsolete" or nothing to take seriously.


AIS is great, and where I sail, I've never knowingly encountered a commercial vessel which wasn't watching AIS, but it may be very different in less civilised parts of the world, and in any case, AIS has no official status whatsoever, and is merely supplemental to showing the correct nav lights, which is a legal obligation.



White lights are particularly dangerous because they look like stern lights and may give an entirely incorrect impression about what kind of crossing is taking place -- like in this case.






Concerning "chopping and changing nav lights" -- I'm not sure what Ping was referring to, but changing the position of nav lights is perfectly fine so long as they fulfill the legal standard. The Rules specify where they can be mounted, and what angle of view they must have. Sidelights may be mounted anywhere, where they are visible from right forward back to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam (Rule 21(b)). Larger sailing vessels often have them on the shrouds, which seems to me to be a better position than in the pulpit. Sidelights (for a vessel of less than 20m) can be placed at any height which is at least 1m less than the height of the masthead light (Annex 1, 2(h)).


The Rules specify MINIMUM visibility, but there is nothing at all wrong with increasing this, and on the contrary, I think that the minimum visibility allowed for vessels under 20m is pathetic, and in the age of LED nav lights where power consumption is no longer an issue, I think everyone would benefit from using 3-mile side lights like the AquaSignal Series 44 ones.


If Ping is talking about non-standard lights, then of course I agree with him. Note Rule 20(b):



The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights as cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.


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How many commercial vessels have you knowingly encountered who were watching thier AIS?

Be wary of assumptions
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Old 02-02-2019, 04:49   #82
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by Uricanejack View Post
How many commercial vessels have you knowingly encountered who were watching thier AIS?

Be wary of assumptions

Did I say anywhere, that I assumed anything? I did not.


I was merely pointing out that in these waters, I have not had a case where a commercial vessel I was talking to, had not noticed me on AIS. That does not indeed mean that it never happens. The point was just that -- although Ping is absolutely right, that nav lights are primary, and there is no excuse, not to show proper ones, that doesn't necessarily mean that commercial vessels don't use or don't watch AIS. They might do less in third world waters, but they SEEM to use AIS pretty intensively up here.


If for nothing else, then I suppose at least to be able to put a name and vessel type, to what they are seeing on radar. Frequent comment from commercial mariners is that they wish we ALL were broadcasting AIS.
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Old 02-02-2019, 11:55   #83
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

The problem with tricking your yacht up with amber, pink, or purple is that it can cause a 'disconnect' between the ears of the watchkeeper..... has yacht on AIS but sees something quite different.... maybe a stationary fishing boat? ... can't see that on AIS... best bring her round to stbd a bit ....
I recall at least two other collisions on the Australian coast... pre AIS but involving radar .... of that nature. Don't ask me to look them up.

Two further points... people speak rather a lot about ships not seeing deck level nav lights in a seaway. It needs quite a sea to be running... the sort that most people try and avoid... for that to be the case. Even then for every second you are in a trough and can't be seen there will be another few seconds where you willbe on a crest where you can be seen. That said, I do run a trilight offshore but not for that reason.

Finally, I have a pulpit mounted red/green..... but it never bothers my night vision. Yes, there is a little bit of light reflecting off the pulpit... lets me know the light is on and burning brightly. If I found it worrisome I would simple wrap a bit of black tape around the offending stainless.... job done.
You get a bit of backscatter in fog, mist or drizzle which is a pest but that happens on all ships wherever their lights are mounted.
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Old 02-02-2019, 13:06   #84
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
The problem with tricking your yacht up with amber, pink, or purple is that it can cause a 'disconnect' between the ears of the watchkeeper..... has yacht on AIS but sees something quite different.... maybe a stationary fishing boat? ... can't see that on AIS... best bring her round to stbd a bit ....
I recall at least two other collisions on the Australian coast... pre AIS but involving radar .... of that nature. Don't ask me to look them up.

Two further points... people speak rather a lot about ships not seeing deck level nav lights in a seaway. It needs quite a sea to be running... the sort that most people try and avoid... for that to be the case. Even then for every second you are in a trough and can't be seen there will be another few seconds where you willbe on a crest where you can be seen. That said, I do run a trilight offshore but not for that reason.

Finally, I have a pulpit mounted red/green..... but it never bothers my night vision. Yes, there is a little bit of light reflecting off the pulpit... lets me know the light is on and burning brightly. If I found it worrisome I would simple wrap a bit of black tape around the offending stainless.... job done.
You get a bit of backscatter in fog, mist or drizzle which is a pest but that happens on all ships wherever their lights are mounted.
" people speak rather a lot about ships not seeing deck level nav lights in a seaway. It needs quite a sea to be running"
I will have to disagree with that part of the statement. Even lights many many feet up on a large freighter are only visible as an occasional momentary blip of light at first in normal seas.
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Old 02-02-2019, 13:16   #85
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
The problem with tricking your yacht up with amber, pink, or purple is that it can cause a 'disconnect' between the ears of the watchkeeper..... has yacht on AIS but sees something quite different.... maybe a stationary fishing boat? ... can't see that on AIS... best bring her round to stbd a bit ....
I recall at least two other collisions on the Australian coast... pre AIS but involving radar .... of that nature. Don't ask me to look them up.

Two further points... people speak rather a lot about ships not seeing deck level nav lights in a seaway. It needs quite a sea to be running... the sort that most people try and avoid... for that to be the case. Even then for every second you are in a trough and can't be seen there will be another few seconds where you willbe on a crest where you can be seen. That said, I do run a trilight offshore but not for that reason.

Finally, I have a pulpit mounted red/green..... but it never bothers my night vision. Yes, there is a little bit of light reflecting off the pulpit... lets me know the light is on and burning brightly. If I found it worrisome I would simple wrap a bit of black tape around the offending stainless.... job done.
You get a bit of backscatter in fog, mist or drizzle which is a pest but that happens on all ships wherever their lights are mounted.
Near shore, a trilcolour can usually be seen from a low vantage point.

However it can be lost in background light as viewed from a much higher vessel.

(Ping illustrated this brilliantly with a photo posted some time back.)

In open water away from background light, a tricolour can be seen by both big and small vessels, all of the time.

Whereas decklights can only be seen all of the time from a relatively high vantage point.

Only when the line of sight between the source vessel and sighting vessel is not blocked by a wave, are deck lights visible between smaller vessels.

The higher the waves, lower the vantage points, and further the distance, the greater times deck lights will be blocked by waves and not visible at all.

From a small boat, deck lights on another small boat may not be seen at all in waves much above 2 m (6.6 ft) until practically on top of them, whereas a proper trilight can easily be spotted from great distances.
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Old 02-02-2019, 14:06   #86
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The cited case (Lysaght Endeavor/Grunter collision) is really useful reading for anyone who thinks that nav lights are "obsolete" or nothing to take seriously.

AIS is great, and where I sail, I've never knowingly encountered a commercial vessel which wasn't watching AIS, but it may be very different in less civilised parts of the world, and in any case, AIS has no official status whatsoever, and is merely supplemental to showing the correct nav lights, which is a legal obligation.
It is very interesting, agreed. However, I don't agree that "AIS has no official status whatsoever". Colregs clearly states that every vessel shall use "all available means appropriate" to determine risk of collision. It would be very difficult to argue that AIS, when fitted (as it would be on any commercial ship nowadays), was not one of the most significant of the "available means" to a watch. Failing to use it would undoubtedly be considered a serious breach if a collision were to happen.

But it's a very good wake-up call to check your lights. I recently replaced my tricolour, which is a good quality German Aqua Signal one from 2004, but it is certainly fading. Not enough to be considered white, but I can see where it's going.

There's far too much use of ropey cheap LED substitutes (in existing old fading lenses) and half-assed solutions that I see being used around here. Even on a good day these show the wrong colour (and can stuff your AIS/VHF up too). If the lens is failing then it's a complete waste of time anyway.

I use one of the MarineBeam combined tricolour/anchor/strobe fittings (and also have their bicolour and stern lights), and the brightness and clarity of the colours is far in excess of the 15-year-old fitting it replaced. More importantly, the LEDs are the correct colour and the lens is clear, so fading will not be an issue.

The report of the collision shows how important it is to ensure your lights are the best you can possibly manage. $109 sounds cheap to me.
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Old 02-02-2019, 14:09   #87
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Near shore, a trilcolour can usually be seen from a low vantage point.

However it can be lost in background light as viewed from a much higher vessel.

(Ping illustrated this brilliantly with a photo posted some time back.)

In open water away from background light, a tricolour can be seen by both big and small vessels, all of the time.

Whereas decklights can only be seen all of the time from a relatively high vantage point.

Only when the line of sight between the source vessel and sighting vessel is not blocked by a wave, are deck lights visible between smaller vessels.

The higher the waves, lower the vantage points, and further the distance, the greater times deck lights will be blocked by waves and not visible at all.

From a small boat, deck lights on another small boat may not be seen at all in waves much above 2 m (6.6 ft) until practically on top of them, whereas a proper trilight can easily be spotted from great distances.
You make a very good point. I think I will take more care in the future to use deck lights when closer to shore or in calm seas, and swap to a tricolour when well offshore and/or in a significant sea state.
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Old 02-02-2019, 14:36   #88
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Now you see me.... now you don't...

Moving right along...I think many people have an inflated idea of their own visibility....

Most yachts aren't much bigger than that ship's lifeboats... the orange spot on the side of her accomodation.... and they are hi-vis orange.... most yachts are lo-vis white.....

In daylight the OOW is far more likely to spot you when you are sitting on the horizon and your sails can be seen against the sky than when you are closer and hull and sails are against a backdrop of whitecaps.
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Old 02-02-2019, 16:12   #89
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

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Originally Posted by Tillsbury View Post
There's far too much use of ropey cheap LED substitutes (in existing old fading lenses) and half-assed solutions that I see being used around here. Even on a good day these show the wrong colour (and can stuff your AIS/VHF up too). If the lens is failing then it's a complete waste of time anyway.
I seem to remember a review carried out by Yachting Monthly or PBO perhaps 10 years ago when LEDs started to become popular as drop in replacement LED bulbs. Tested were drop in replacements, some new LED complete lights, Lopo? and a filament standard tricolour light. The results were illuminating most of the drop in replacement LEDs at the time had a bleed over of colour past the allowed arcs. The colours were outside of the allowed spectrum and the horizontal angle wasn't great either for tricolour lights.

So tonights' quiz; a virtual beer for those who can identify what this light is. Advertised tonight on UK ebay as a stern navigation light, would you use it? Took me a little while to spot it.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stern-nav...t/292933226245

Advert text:

Stern light for sale. Get exact size from picture

It is from the T40 series

It is sold as second hand, however it is brand new and never used


.
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Old 02-02-2019, 16:21   #90
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Re: Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

Yes, spotted it.
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