Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

[davil]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

Ok. I'll put it bluntly.


Now, I have a pair of pretty amazing LED floodlights I paid 4 bucks each for on Ebay mounted to my radar pole as deck lights. One faces forwards, and one backwards. These are my attention grabbers.

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excellent idea
like it,most are square,did you find round?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Like other more experienced posters I do wonder whether how well you've thought through your approach. Orange is not ordinarily used as a signalling color because it can be mistaken for yellow, or red, or white, depending on the circumstances, the surrounding colors, and any limitations of color vision that the observer may suffer. Amber -- a deliberate effort to land somewhere between orange and yellow -- was used as a "caution" light on military and industrial equipment decades ago mainly because it is easy to filter either a neon or incandescent indicator to appear to be amber.

Combined with the unconventional placement I think the overall effect could be distracting.

Some sort of indirect deck lighting that is out of your field of vision might be an alternative to consider.

Well technically I DO have amber lights, amber was the only sealed fixture that I could find.

As previously noted they will be installed below the deck edge and should only affect night vision thru reflections off of waves. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2814452

As far as unconventional placement goes, I'd rather be seen and confuse people about what my lights mean than to confuse them with a funny noise when I go bump off their bow if they even notice the bump.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by davil

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excellent idea
like it,most are square,did you find round?

They're just 10w 12 volt garden floodlights with alloy casings. The measure about 3 X 2 inches at a wild guess. I got square as I prefer this shape, and this is probably more efficient because the cob LEDs used are square. They're not true "marine" quality but for the price, I reckon I'll get a few years out of them at least. They're waterproof and use stainless steel screws and it's just the mounting bracket that's powder coated steel that let's them down. I was considering making some replacements out of stainless, but figured the mfd uses a steel bracket too, so why bother. I rigged them up so they can be swapped out quickly if they die. So far so good. I got them on ebay.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's helpful; thanks for bringing us back to the source!


To summarize -- remember that you are a "sailing vessel" only when the motor is off and you are making way under sail.


So if you have the motor on, you must not use either tricolor nor red over green.


If you use tricolor, you must not use deck level sidelights or stern light.


If you use red-over-green, you must, on the contrary, have all the deck level lights on.


Turn the the motor on, however, and you have to shut all the down and go back to deck level sidelights and stern lights, plus the masthead steaming light.

Ehhh. Not on. In use.

As the expert you might as well get it right.

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Absolutely correct

No almost correct

[Uricanejack]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Well technically I DO have amber lights, amber was the only sealed fixture that I could find.

As previously noted they will be installed below the deck edge and should only affect night vision thru reflections off of waves. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2814452

As far as unconventional placement goes, I'd rather be seen and confuse people about what my lights mean than to confuse them with a funny noise when I go bump off their bow if they even notice the bump.

So your not concerned about being run over when we can’t tell what kind of vessel you are or which way you are going and guess wrong.
Or concerned about being lit up by a high powered searchlight along with a complaint to VTS and coastguard about the vessel showing the wrong lights.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

So your not concerned about being run over when we can’t tell what kind of vessel you are or which way you are going and guess wrong.
Or concerned about being lit up by a high powered searchlight along with a complaint to VTS and coastguard about the vessel showing the wrong lights.

Why is it that whenever somebody encounters something they really don't agree with here the go to response is something in the vein of "Don't you care about your life? Or the lives of your crew?" Why don't you just come out and say bluntly that you think I'm stupid? That is really what you are implying. It's kind of offensive.

Somebody wants to light me up cuz they aren't bright enough, don't know enough or won't take the time to figure it out at least they aren't running me over.

CG shows up, I'm in compliance, I just have extra lights that "cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out."

If you see my lights, you'll know I'm there which is more than half the battle. I have a 20' boat. I sail in the 3-5kt range. My motor flat out struggles to hit 5kt. Avoiding me is easy, just don't aim at me.

[Uricanejack]

Ok I don’t think you are in compliance or very wise.
What you describe could easily be mistaken for a vessel seen from astern due to all the extra lighting shown forward.
So it is entirely possible a vessel could turn towards you intending to pass astern.

If you are concerned about being seen get brighter Nav lights and fit them where intended.
If still concerned have a bright light to shine up on your sails or flash at the oncoming vessel.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Uricanejack

Ok I don’t think you are in compliance or very wise.
What you describe could easily be mistaken for a vessel seen from astern due to all the extra lighting shown forward.
So it is entirely possible a vessel could turn towards you intending to pass astern.

If you are concerned about being seen get brighter Nav lights and fit them where intended.
If still concerned have a bright light to shine up on your sails or flash at the oncoming vessel.

I've had extensive conversations with bridge officers of commercial vessels about this, and the consensus seems to be that they would rather see you at all, even at the expense of the pedantic correctness of your nav lights. I was often told -- if in doubt, light up with everything you have -- we want to see you.





That being said, I think Uricanejack's suggestion of brighter but correct nav lights is a better idea.




It seems to be a common practice among French sailors to put on their anchor lights (!) when they sail in traffic. They come in like that all the time into Cowes, arriving at night from across the Channel. I asked one about it once, and the answer was -- I just want to be sure to be seen, no matter what.


Seems crazy to me, and it's a violation of the Rules, but it's certainly a point of view.


As for myself -- I have nav lights one size bigger, than standard for my size (under 20 meters). 3 or 4 miles (I can't remember) instead of 2. With LEDs, power consumption is not an issue, so I think extra bright nav lights are a really good idea.




For those oh s___ moments when you are really afraid to not be seen, a good bright deck light which lights up the sails and deck works wonders, without confusing anyone.

[Cheechako]

Red over Green all around? Is that even legal?
At any rate it matters little except in close quarters. All lights at sea become white from any distance. I like masthead tricolor for that reason, see able at distance.

[CarlF]

Let's stop pretending that COLREGS is the same thing as good seamanship or best practice. They are horribly out of date.

Tricolors are 1960's technology - a small step up from the oil lamp that were generally used at the time.

And does anyone know if an oil lamp would STILL qualify as a "lantern" and be allowed as your only navigation light under COLREGS 25(b)?

"(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or
near the top of the mast where it can best be seen."

I show the most and brightest lights I legally can - but my primary method to show other vessels where I am at night is an AIS transponder (plus a radar reflector). By the time a 900ft container vessel can see a puny 2 mile masthead light and figure out which way you are going, it's probably too late.

"But my lights met COLREGS" is good for a headstone.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Let's stop pretending that COLREGS is the same thing as good seamanship or best practice. They are horribly out of date.

Tricolors are 1960's technology - a small step up from the oil lamp that were generally used at the time.

And does anyone know if an oil lamp would STILL qualify as a "lantern" and be allowed as your only navigation light under COLREGS 25(b)?

"(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed
in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or
near the top of the mast where it can best be seen."

I show the most and brightest lights I legally can - but my primary method to show other vessels where I am at night is an AIS transponder (plus a radar reflector). By the time a 900ft container vessel can see a puny 2 mile masthead light and figure out which way you are going, it's probably too late.

"But my lights met COLREGS" is good for a headstone.

IMHO ColRegs compliance is good seamanship and best practice.

These are minimum requirements.

One can certainly do more, like add radar and AIS, that are not required to be carried, but are required to be used if the vessel is so equipped, per ColRegs.

The important thing about standards compliance, is that if everyone is doing a thing a certain way, and everyone understands the standard, everyone knows what is happening.

This said, most freighters in Lake Ontario are lit up like a Christmas tree at night. Absolutely impossible to tell relative heading without multiple compass bearings, radar, or AIS.

You should see them when the LO300/600 race is on, and this goes out on the "Notice To Mariners" with 200+ sailboats crossing the shipping lanes all night.

The generators must be completely maxxed out with all the lights on, and many have a watch on the bow scanning the water in front of the vessel with a huge spot light.



Photo is of a normally lit LO freighter.

This is from directly abeam.

When this vessel is coming directly at you (20 knot combined approach speed), without AIS or radar, you have absolutely no idea what it is until about 5 miles away.

Looks like a single white light that could be the stern light of another racer 1/4 mile ahead of you, that you appear to be catching up to. "Good job crew! Oh! Wait! Wholly crap!!!! Turn 90 degrees to starboard and hold new course!!!!!"

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Red over Green all around? Is that even legal?

Yes, it's called out quite specifically in Rule 25.

—INTERNATIONAL—
Lights and Shapes
RULE 25—CONTINUED
(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Red over Green all around? Is that even legal?
... .

Those are the "red over green, sailing machine" lights.

As was discussed above, those are the lights used TOGETHER WITH, not instead of, deck level lights.

That would really be the way to go, except deck level lights ruin my night vision

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That would really be the way to go, except deck level lights ruin my night vision

Why can't you either shield them better or move them up higher?