Tricolor considered harmful; Red over green preferred

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I did think about LED but reports of poor light colours and interference with VHF means I will just be sticking an ordinary filament bulb in place.

The rest of us are not experiencing those problems. Perhaps you should give it another thought.

[ramblinrod]

I think "masthead" is a term from old sailing ships, which defined a platform on the mast of square riggers.

Now it is commonly used to refer to the top of the mast of sloops (and this is not incorrect use of the term, just a modern one).

I encounter some electrical panels that label the switch or breaker to operate the light to be used when under power as the "masthead light".

When I install a DC panel, I label this switch or breaker as the "steaming light" to hopefully avoid confusion.

It may cause less confusion yet, to label it the "motoring light" but most panel labelling kits don't include this as an option, where most do provide a "steaming" or "steaming light" label.

[CF32907]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

You can't have a tricolour by itself if you have an engine so in essence a tricolour is an adjunct and offshore light only. Certainly wouldn't have it on in a shipping lane, but for low traffic areas they keep light off the deck (and surrounding sea) which helps night vision. I prefer them for this reason alone.

Your absolutely wrong about a tri-color needing standard running with its operation. The tri-color is a stand alone and can be ran by itself and be legal and legal off shore. Also the red over green if ran, must have the standard deck lighting functioning at the same time. Also if your running lights are mounted below your rub rail / gunwale they are only good for inland nav operation, they must be mounted above the gunwale to be acceptable for off shore. Sale boat can also use the same standard nav lights as a power boat but must adhere to power boat rules. If you are powering a sailboat at night, you also need a 120p steaming light forward side of mid mast.
Why do so many folks guess at requirements, it may cost someone their life. Just google coast guard navigation light requirements, it's all there and simple enough for anyone to understand, even has colored picture.
Also anyone changing led out for there incandesent, All lights on 20m around 66' and under must have visibility brightness for 2 miles.....CaptVR

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by CF32907

Your absolutely wrong about a tri-color needing standard running with its operation. The tri-color is a stand alone and can be ran by itself and be legal and legal off shore. Also the red over green if ran, must have the standard deck lighting functioning at the same time. Also if your running lights are mounted below your rub rail / gunwale they are only good for inland nav operation, they must be mounted above the gunwale to be acceptable for off shore. Sale boat can also use the same standard nav lights as a power boat but must adhere to power boat rules. If you are powering a sailboat at night, you also need a 120p steaming light forward side of mid mast.
Why do so many folks guess at requirements, it may cost someone their life. Just google coast guard navigation light requirements, it's all there and simple enough for anyone to understand, even has colored picture.
Also anyone changing led out for there incandesent, All lights on 20m around 66' and under must have visibility brightness for 2 miles.....CaptVR

No. I'm absolutely right and your comprehension is wrong.


Adjunct: a thing added to something else as a supplementary rather than an essential part

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jammer

In reviewing alternatives for reducing masthead clutter, I came across some posts on other forums indicating that there is a school of thought that holds that the masthead tricolor light is inferior in all material ways to red-over-green all around lights:


1) The tricolor was, according to some sources, originally an accommodation for sailing vessels with limited power, as during the incandescent lamp era it required only one bulb. In the LED era, this line of reasoning no longer makes sense, since any navigation lights now require minimal power.


2) Any ancillary benefits of visibility in heavy seas are better achieved by placing the sidelights and stern light high, or installing red over green all-around lights at the masthead, or both; as the tricolor being seen as only one light is difficult for other boats to use to judge distance and size



3) Similarly, the red over green more clearly and unambiguously identify the boat as being under sail and therefore entitled to appropriate treatment under the colregs


Your thoughts?

I have only seen Red over Green once on a 35-45’ tri coming into Shilshole when it should have been using power vessel arrangement since it was motoring. That’s neither here nor there, the thing I noticed was that the lights were mounted on the sides of the mast and would have been obscured by the main to one side. If it were a masthead rig the lights would have been obscured in multiple directions.

The point of a tricolor was to conserve power and to be visible from a greater distance or in heavy seas that would have mostly obscured deck level lights.

Being on very small sailboat I want to maximize my chances of being seen. As such I want lights high and low.

Because the sails will obscure lights along the mast all my higher lights need to be atop the mast. I’m not willing to stick a post on top to get the 1m separation for Red/Green. I haven’t figured out anything I could put on top that couldn’t be confused with something some other type of vessel so I’m stuck putting a tricolor/ anchor light at the top which covers the required lights except when motoring.

When motoring I have a bicolor hanging from the bow pulpit and the anchor light is run as an all around steaming light. So I have high and low lights all around except aft and low.

So when I’m under sail or at anchor I need something at deck level. After looking thru the rules I noted that orange lights are not assigned for any use. Consequently I’ve got 6 orange lights that I’m about to install around the boat just below deck level, both sides of the bow, amidships both sides, and on each corner of the stern, from any direction an observer at a distance should see at least 2 orange lights arranged horizontally as well as regular navigation lights. I’m considering getting 1 or 2 more to put on the boat’s quarters.

How can these lights be confused with something else? Let’s say an observer says they are yellow not orange.
Yellow is used for a number of things: towing, fishing, inland pipeline dredging, hovercraft, pilot vessels and in conjunction with a whistle that goes on and off with the sound.
For towing the yellow light much be above the White stern light and on my vessel the stern light will be far above my orange lights.
In fishing yellow lights are arranged vertically and mine will be horizontal.
For pipelines yellow lights are arranged vertically at the ends of the work. I have no intention of taking my boat inland any way.
The rest of the cases involve flashing lights.

I can see the argument that the anchor/steaming light is not very visible when close to the vessel but there is support in the rules for the interpretation that lights are meant to be viewed from a distance (Annex I.2.b)

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

No. I'm absolutely right and your comprehension is wrong.


Adjunct: a thing added to something else as a supplementary rather than an essential part

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b). Sailing Vessel Underway

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#Rule25

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I have only seen Red over Green once on a 35-45’ tri coming into Shilshole when it should have been using power vessel arrangement since it was motoring. That’s neither here nor there, the thing I noticed was that the lights were mounted on the sides of the mast and would have been obscured by the main to one side. If it were a masthead rig the lights would have been obscured in multiple directions.

The point of a tricolor was to conserve power and to be visible from a greater distance or in heavy seas that would have mostly obscured deck level lights.

Being on very small sailboat I want to maximize my chances of being seen. As such I want lights high and low.

Because the sails will obscure lights along the mast all my higher lights need to be atop the mast. I’m not willing to stick a post on top to get the 1m separation for Red/Green. I haven’t figured out anything I could put on top that couldn’t be confused with something some other type of vessel so I’m stuck putting a tricolor/ anchor light at the top which covers the required lights except when motoring.

When motoring I have a bicolor hanging from the bow pulpit and the anchor light is run as an all around steaming light. So I have high and low lights all around except aft and low.

So when I’m under sail or at anchor I need something at deck level. After looking thru the rules I noted that orange lights are not assigned for any use. Consequently I’ve got 6 orange lights that I’m about to install around the boat just below deck level, both sides of the bow, amidships both sides, and on each corner of the stern, from any direction an observer at a distance should see at least 2 orange lights arranged horizontally as well as regular navigation lights. I’m considering getting 1 or 2 more to put on the boat’s quarters.

How can these lights be confused with something else? Let’s say an observer says they are yellow not orange.
Yellow is used for a number of things: towing, fishing, inland pipeline dredging, hovercraft, pilot vessels and in conjunction with a whistle that goes on and off with the sound.
For towing the yellow light much be above the White stern light and on my vessel the stern light will be far above my orange lights.
In fishing yellow lights are arranged vertically and mine will be horizontal.
For pipelines yellow lights are arranged vertically at the ends of the work. I have no intention of taking my boat inland any way.
The rest of the cases involve flashing lights.

I can see the argument that the anchor/steaming light is not very visible when close to the vessel but there is support in the rules for the interpretation that lights are meant to be viewed from a distance (Annex I.2.b)

I'd suggest a blue light might be better than orange. For some reason blue lights make people pay attention!




As I see it, there's two scenarios where nav lights are difficult to discern. The first is when a vessel is between the observer and a lighted background like an urban area on shore. Predominant background lighting tends to vary from white to orange and vessels can be very hard to see because they tend to blend into the background. I think orange lights could possibly have a negative effect in this scenario. The next scenario is in open water on dark nights. The issue with something like a tricolour is not it's brightness, but rather the fact that it is a single point of light and this makes it very difficult to determine distance visually (as a previous poster noted). In this case - although there's a very good argument against using non standard navigation lights - additional lighting could definitely help.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b). Sailing Vessel Underway

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#Rule25

That's helpful; thanks for bringing us back to the source!


To summarize -- remember that you are a "sailing vessel" only when the motor is off and you are making way under sail.


So if you have the motor on, you must not use either tricolor nor red over green.


If you use tricolor, you must not use deck level sidelights or stern light.


If you use red-over-green, you must, on the contrary, have all the deck level lights on.


Turn the the motor on, however, and you have to shut all the down and go back to deck level sidelights and stern lights, plus the masthead steaming light.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b). Sailing Vessel Underway

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#Rule25

Ok, obviously my succinct writing style needs expanding....

You can't have a tricolour by itself if you have an engine so in essence a tricolour is an adjunct and offshore light only. Certainly wouldn't have it on in a shipping lane, but for low traffic areas they keep light off the deck (and surrounding sea) which helps night vision. I prefer them for this reason alone.

A tricolor can only be used for sailing and not for motoring. If a boat is capable of motoring it must have an engine and will require separate navigation lights. The navigation lights used for motoring can also be used for sailing by simply extinguishing the steaming light. Therefore, the installation of a tricoulour represents a secondary navigation light system which can only be used when under sail. One advantage of running the secondary navigation light system is that the primary navigation light system can be extinguished, which cuts down stray light interference on deck on many vessels therefore I prefer to use the tricoulour when in dark and lonely waters for this reason. However, when I am near shore or in busy waterways, I use the primary navigation lights because I believe they give more visibility and depth because being lower, they are more easily seen in close quarters and the spacial separation of the lighting provides nearby vessels with a degree of distance perspective.



I hope that clears things up!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

I'd suggest a blue light might be better than orange. For some reason blue lights make people pay attention!




As I see it, there's two scenarios where nav lights are difficult to discern. The first is when a vessel is between the observer and a lighted background like an urban area on shore. Predominant background lighting tends to vary from white to orange and vessels can be very hard to see because they tend to blend into the background. I think orange lights could possibly have a negative effect in this scenario. The next scenario is in open water on dark nights. The issue with something like a tricolour is not it's brightness, but rather the fact that it is a single point of light and this makes it very difficult to determine distance visually (as a previous poster noted). In this case - although there's a very good argument against using non standard navigation lights - additional lighting could definitely help.

All the extra light aren’t non-standard, they are lights in addition to the standard navigation lights.

Rule 20 - Application Return to the top of the page

(a) Rules 20-31 shall be complied with in all weathers.

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#rule20


As far as Blue lights go cops think that color belongs to them and I’d rather argue with law enforcement about orange lights which the towing folks seem to think is “their” color than with cops about using “their” color.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's helpful; thanks for bringing us back to the source!


To summarize -- remember that you are a "sailing vessel" only when the motor is off and you are making way under sail.


So if you have the motor on, you must not use either tricolor nor red over green.


If you use tricolor, you must not use deck level sidelights or stern light.


If you use red-over-green, you must, on the contrary, have all the deck level lights on.


Turn the the motor on, however, and you have to shut all the down and go back to deck level sidelights and stern lights, plus the masthead steaming light.

Almost correct:

Rule 3 - General Definitions Return to the top of the page

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft, and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lgamated#rule3

The motor can be on but not engaged in propelling a sailboat and it still counts as a sailboat and should display lights and shapes for a sailboat.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

All the extra light aren’t non-standard, they are lights in addition to the standard navigation lights.

Rule 20 - Application Return to the top of the page

(a) Rules 20-31 shall be complied with in all weathers.

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#rule20


As far as Blue lights go cops think that color belongs to them and I’d rather argue with law enforcement about orange lights which the towing folks seem to think is “their” color than with cops about using “their” color.

Ok. I'll put it bluntly. People that think inventing their own navigation light patterns are a hazard to both themselves and all other nearby waterway users. 20b is referring to things like cabin and deck lights, NOT DIY navigation light schemes.


Now, I have a pair of pretty amazing LED floodlights I paid 4 bucks each for on Ebay mounted to my radar pole as deck lights. One faces forwards, and one backwards. These are my attention grabbers.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Almost correct:

Rule 3 - General Definitions Return to the top of the page

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft, and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lgamated#rule3

The motor can be on but not engaged in propelling a sailboat and it still counts as a sailboat and should display lights and shapes for a sailboat.

Ya reckon?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's helpful; thanks for bringing us back to the source!


To summarize -- remember that you are a "sailing vessel" only when the motor is off and you are making way under way under sail.


So if you have the motor on, you must not use either tricolor nor red over green.


If you use tricolor, you must not use deck level sidelights or stern light.


If you use red-over-green, you must, on the contrary, have all the deck level lights on.


Turn the the motor on, however, and you have to shut all the down and go back to deck level sidelights and stern lights, plus the masthead steaming light.

'Masthead light' is a very much misunderstood word ... despite being used in the rules.

Commonly known as a 'steaming light' despite the fact that few ships 'steam' anymore .... except for those that boil the kettle with nuclear fuel rods.

Never called the 'motoring light' - except by Rod up above - despite that being what 99% are doing....

And finally... often not mounted on a mast at all...

This ship had her after steaming light on the front of the funnel... http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au...ted/1549_0.jpg
This class - and many others - had their frd steaming lights hanging below the forestay on an interesting 'wire guide' set up. You can see it between the samson posts... her after steaming light is on the mast.. https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/galle...a-star/cat/520

[roverhi]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Rule 25 - Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars Return to the top of the page

(a) A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit: Sailing Vessel Underway

(i) sidelights;
(ii) a sternlight.

(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters in length the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a) may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen. Sailing Vessel Underway

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in Rule 25(a), exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by Rule 25(b). Sailing Vessel Underway

https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...gamated#Rule25

The LeFiell mast for my W32 came with red over green lights 45 years ago. Asked around at the time and no one including Westsail knew what the lights were for so I never used them. The reg's call for all around red over green. All around is very difficult to do because of the mast and the mainsail unless they are on a mast above the top of the stick.

The mast head running light gets the light up above the sails and High in the air so they won't be obstructed and can be seen over long distances. They are effective for that purpose but others have mentioned issues with gyrations causing confusion in significant seas. Yes they were originally hyped as a way to cut down on electrical draw. The deck mounted lights that could actually be seen at a distance had something like 40 watt incandescent bulbs and 3 of them burning all night put a serious dent in a batteries charge. I mounted one of the first masthead running lights available. It was neon bulb in a clear plastic tube with green and red plastic film for the forward colored lights and bare for the aft white side. Worked fine but the colored plastic bleached out to clear after a few months in the tropics but it still made a great anchor light.

Have always had duplicate navigation lights, the mast head tricolor and bicolor on the bow pulpit and white on the stern. Use the mast head light primarily at sea for minimal current draw and long distance sighting. All the running lights are LED's with no problem interfering with HF, VHF, Compass or any other electronics. Have had an issue with some interior LED lights causing static with AM radio. Those lights are over 9 years old and weren't marine specific bulbs so may not have had rf shielding that are common practice today. In any case, think it's stupid to automatically cancel out using LED lighting for some possibly causing RF interference. Should be able to find bulbs that don't have issues and the low current drain far far outweighs any possible negatives.