The loss of M/V Conception

[IslandHopper]

It would have to be 20 years since i last worked on a Halon equipped vessel....

Halon Fact Sheet - Australia

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Good info, thanks for posting.

I just wanted to elaborate; the captain of Grape Escape heard explosions AFTER he'd already been awakened, according to the article, by his wife, who heard "banging."

It wasn't clear to me whether that was the Conception crew banging on the hull, or the initial "banging" from the fire.

At any rate, the whole question of whether or not the fire started with an "explosion" is not settled, from what I've read. Maybe someone knows and isn't saying, or the reporters are getting it wrong (like usual.) And, of course, there are all different kinds of "explosions."

I think you could infer that it was not an explosion from news that said one of the crew was alerted to the fire when awakened due to a noise heard down below like something falling. That's not to say this is the definitive answer as to whether there was an explosion, but because the deaths seemed to have been caused by smoke inhalation, it certainly leans toward the thought that something was smoldering at bunk level for a long time and then eventually ignited, which woke the crew. It's also possible that someone told the news media that the group likely died of smoke inhalation because the alternative of being trapped and burned to death is too much to bear.

[Training Wheels]

And it also infers that there was no one on watch, as required.

[td0tz]

Perhaps slightly off topic, I was surprised to read in the LA Times that the Conception was of wooden construction. I recall seeing commercial boats being built in steel here in Santa Barbara in the 70's. Is wood still common in commercial vessels? I would have thought steel was much cheaper, more durable and actually lower maintenance.
Google fails me, Forum?

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

And it also infers that there was no one on watch, as required.

If true (and all preliminary indications are that it is) this is the biggie. Did the company require deliberately-established night time watches or just told them to make sure someone keeps an eye out from time to time? To me, there's a big difference.

Originally Posted by td0tz

Perhaps slightly off topic, I was surprised to read in the LA Times that the Conception was of wooden construction. I recall seeing commercial boats being built in steel here in Santa Barbara in the 70's. Is wood still common in commercial vessels? I would have thought steel was much cheaper, more durable and actually lower maintenance.
Google fails me, Forum?

I've read she was wood with fiberglass. Not sure if this was typical in her day. I understand she has a bit of a storied history.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by gamayun

If true (and all preliminary indications are that it is) this is the biggie. Did the company require deliberately-established night time watches or just told them to make sure someone keeps an eye out from time to time? To me, there's a big difference. I've read she was wood with fiberglass. Not sure if this was typical in her day. I understand she has a bit of a storied history.

The Captain is ultimately responsible for implementing watches, as required by Colregs and the certificate of inspection.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by gamayun

It's also possible that someone told the news media that the group likely died of smoke inhalation because the alternative of being trapped and burned to death is too much to bear.

Psychologically, it's less painful to imagine someone silently passed away in their sleep by breathing carbon monoxide.

Unless a fire is extraordinarily hot, the cause of death in most fires is attributed to smoke inhalation (the number I've seen is 74%). Death by smoke inhalation doesn't say anything about the nature of suffering. Anyone who has ever breathed dense smoke from a fire (not engine exhaust fumes) will know that there is significant suffering from inhaling smoke.

Here's more on the post-mortem examination of victims. https://scholarlycommons.law.northwe...7&context=jclc

[Cpt Pat]

(session timed out)

… a finding of death by smoke inhalation tells us only what we already know: that the victim was alive when the fire started. There is no comfort to be derived from that finding.

[john61ct]

If they died from inhaling the smoke emitted by LI batteries (not LFP) in thermal runaway, just as bad as Zyklon B

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Halon systems were NOT "removed".
A64 is correct, in that Halon, unlike CO2, does NOT remove (displace) oxygen from the air.
Because Halon is a CFC*, production of new Halon ceased in 1994. While the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994, under the Clean Air Act, it is still legal to purchase and use recycled Halon and Halon fire extinguishers. In fact, the FAA continues to recommend Halon fire extinguishers for aircraft.

*Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) ➥ https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/hats/p...kins/cfcs.html

I have five Halon fire extinguishers on my boat, three automatic that were there when I bought her, one in the engine compt. One in the Lazarette where the generator is, and a third in the electrical compt.
Then I have two hand held aircraft fire bottles, brought over from aircraft.
I also have a decently large Halotron (10 lb bottle) I believe that is a Halon replacement. It’s roughly half as effective as Halon. And of course several of the dry chemical ones or make the USCG happy.
Fire scares me, nothing else I can imagine will put me in the water faster and maybe injured than a fire.

I believe however that I’m several countries Halon is / was outlawed, I remember the day when the German’s showed up and confiscated our flight line fire extinguishers.

I don’t believe there is argument at all that Halon is bad for the ozone layer, that’s a certainty, but it was the use of tons of it daily in the production of electrical components for cleaning etc that was the real issue of CFC’s in the atmosphere, and even the lowly spray can contributed more than you might think.
However it’s just my opinion that the very little that was used to extinguish fires along with the life saving, but putting out those fires may have more than offset the Halon release in doing so.

I made that statement to the German that was taking the fire extinguishers, he was so proud to be protecting the environment. I asked him if he didn’t think that burning 15,000 lbs of fuel and high tech composites and the fumes they released wasn’t worse than a little Halon. I love and respect German’s, you could tell he was seriously considering that, they are a logical group of people, but he said I have no choice, it must go.

China is apparently producing and releasing tons of CFC’s again, against treaty, its source is so prolific that it’s been tracked I believe by satellite.

But the little bit of Halon that is released by fire fighting is small, almost non existent. It was the electronics industry washing circuit boards, air conditioning to some extent and more spray cans than you may imagine as it was the preferred propellant for spray cans.
However a flooded Halon system could very well have saved those people, it will absolutely extinguish most any kind of fire, and leave you plenty of air to breathe.
There are certain types of fires, hypergolics and maybe some flammable metals it may not extinguish, but those are very , very uncommon.

However I’ve been told that Halon in some countries is treated as if you were smuggling drugs, they will lock you up.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have five Halon fire extinguishers on my boat, three automatic that were there when I bought her, one in the engine compt. One in the Lazarette where the generator is, and a third in the electrical compt.
Then I have two hand held aircraft fire bottles, brought over from aircraft.
I also have a decently large Halotron (10 lb bottle) I believe that is a Halon replacement. It’s roughly half as effective as Halon. And of course several of the dry chemical ones or make the USCG happy.
Fire scares me, nothing else I can imagine will put me in the water faster and maybe injured than a fire.

I believe however that I’m several countries Halon is / was outlawed, I remember the day when the German’s showed up and confiscated our flight line fire extinguishers.

I don’t believe there is argument at all that Halon is bad for the ozone layer, that’s a certainty, but it was the use of tons of it daily in the production of electrical components for cleaning etc that was the real issue of CFC’s in the atmosphere, and even the lowly spray can contributed more than you might think.
However it’s just my opinion that the very little that was used to extinguish fires along with the life saving, but putting out those fires may have more than offset the Halon release in doing so.

I made that statement to the German that was taking the fire extinguishers, he was so proud to be protecting the environment. I asked him if he didn’t think that burning 15,000 lbs of fuel and high tech composites and the fumes they released wasn’t worse than a little Halon. I love and respect German’s, you could tell he was seriously considering that, they are a logical group of people, but he said I have no choice, it must go.

China is apparently producing and releasing tons of CFC’s again, against treaty, its source is so prolific that it’s been tracked I believe by satellite.

But the little bit of Halon that is released by fire fighting is small, almost non existent. It was the electronics industry washing circuit boards, air conditioning to some extent and more spray cans than you may imagine as it was the preferred propellant for spray cans.
However a flooded Halon system could very well have saved those people, it will absolutely extinguish most any kind of fire, and leave you plenty of air to breathe.
There are certain types of fires, hypergolics and maybe some flammable metals it may not extinguish, but those are very , very uncommon.

However I’ve been told that Halon in some countries is treated as if you were smuggling drugs, they will lock you up.

A64: While I completely agree with your position regarding the minimal environmental risk of Halon when used as a fire suppressant, the FAA did tests and found Halon to be ineffective at combating lithium battery fires.

https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-w...-battery-fires

Excerpt:

It has always been the case that the FAA’s stance is that a high concentration of Halon can put out any fire, including those started by lithium-ion batteries. However that is no longer the case, and the opinion has been shown as fallacious. In March, the International Coordination Council of Aerospace released a paper about bulk battery shipments which labeled them as an unacceptable risk.

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/syst...teriesrev2.pdf

Excerpt:

– Halon 1211 was effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte from
lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation of
thermal runaway.
– Halon 1301 was also effective in extinguishing burning electrolyte
from lithium-ion cells, but was ineffective in stopping the propagation
of thermal runaway.

By "stopping the propagation of thermal runaway," they mean stopping the adjacent cells in a pack from explosively "cooking off."

There is a product called FireIce that claims to be effective (I'm skeptical):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k77aXTWNi8s

[gamayun]

Good article about the culture of California diving in general...

https://www.sfchronicle.com/travel/a...f-14426405.php

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If they died from inhaling the smoke emitted by LI batteries (not LFP) in thermal runaway, just as bad as Zyklon B

Zyklon B is a trade name for Hydrogen cyanide, and other than of course the terror that I’m not trying to play down it’s actually a pretty painless death.
It’s of course I believe what is used in the gas chamber to execute people.
On edit, I doubt that the gas given off from a burning battery is remotely similar to hydrogen cyanide, and further seriously doubt that is was even remotely the cause of death, surely the other materials that were burning were.
If the cause of the fire were lithium batteries, personally I think that’s entirely possible, there were likely 34 cell phones being charged and maybe several other Lithium batteries too.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

The Captain is ultimately responsible for implementing watches, as required by Colregs and the certificate of inspection.

Is the captain also paying for the night watchman? Having someone who just stays up all night means they have to be mostly asleep during the day - so generally no cooking, no filling tanks and no diving. That is a corporate cost.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Is the captain also paying for the night watchman? Having someone who just stays up all night means they have to be mostly asleep during the day - so generally no cooking, no filling tanks and no diving. That is a corporate cost.

Not really, we called them fire guards in the Army, every barracks always had someone awake and on guard, shift was two hours if memory serves, but that was a long time ago.
You didn’t miss training the next day cause you were a little sleepy I assure you.